FORWARD: Lack of Meat Choices Not Kosher

The Forward has a report on the misbehavior of Rubashkin and his primary national distributor, Twin City Poultry, based in Minnesota. Everything in the report related to these abuses is true. How do I know that? Because when I owned the kosher meat market in Saint Paul 13 years ago, I had the same problems with TCP, Rubashkin and Rabbi Moshe Tuvia Lieff:

The only problem, Markon said, was that after putting in orders for non-glatt meat, it rarely arrived; the manager of the store, a SuperValu, says she was told that the distributor was “pushing” glatt meat.

Finally, Markon and the SuperValu she enlisted went directly to AgriProcessors, the Postville, Iowa-based company that is the country’s largest producer of glatt and non-glatt fresh meat. When the first shipment came in last week, there was no non-glatt meat inside — and no explanation.

“We’ve been in a sort of stranglehold,” said Markon, who works at the local Jewish day school. “If we want to have the most people eating kosher food, and we don’t allow them the least expensive way to achieve that — that’s a great disservice.”…

“There are people who are closing our choice in kashrut and unless we are vigilant about it, it ain’t going to be,” said Morris Allen, the religious leader of Beth Jacob Congregation in St. Paul. Allen is the rabbi who has brought together local Conservative congregations to address the lack of non-glatt kosher meat.

According to research that Allen did, in recent weeks non-glatt meat in nearby areas of the Midwest has been as much as 48% cheaper when it comes to Swiss steak, 23% for bologna and 15% for knockwurst.…

Markon’s concern about the lack of non-glatt meat was a concern for was shared by Rabbi Paul Drazen, director of the United Synagogue for Conservative Judaism’s regional office. On trips to Chicago, Drazen noted that he could buy non-glatt brisket for $6.99 a pound, while in Minnesota glatt brisket was $14.99 a pound. He says he asked the head of the local Vaad, known as Minnesota Kosher, if the kosher stores could stock prepackaged non-glatt meat. Drazen says he was told it wouldn’t happen. The Orthodox rabbi who heads the Vaad, Moshe Lieff, could not be reached for comment.

Allen tackled the issue head on after St. Paul’s only kosher meat outlet went out of business last December. He held a meeting at his congregation in February, at which 100 people showed up and the “Choice in Kashruth” campaign was launched. He also met with the rabbis from the four other Conservative synagogues in the Twin Cities.

In the first experiment, Allen’s congregation ordered about 20 cases of non-glatt meat for Passover through the Cooper’s SuperValu in St. Paul. A few days before the holiday, word came back from the local distributor, Twin City Poultry, that none of the meat would come in.…

A few weeks ago SuperValu placed an order directly with AgriProcessors for David’s meat. After a number of delays, a shipment finally came in — but according to Cooper, the non-glatt meat was missing. “It’s really strange,” she said.…

I checked 6 markets across the country. All were selling Rubashkin and Empire chicken for less retail than I was being charged wholesale. Non-glatt meat was ordered, Rubashkin would confirm the order and confirm the shipment. When the orders came, the non-glatt was missing.

When we were able to get non-glatt from Rubashkin (by driving down to Postville to get it), Rabbi Moshe Tuvia Lieff told his congregation we were untrustworthy and could not be patronized, even though the non-glatt and glatt was kept separate and clearly marked, and we allowed anyone to check our processing and storage at any time without any prior warning.

We were threatened, taken to beit din (we won), and then threatened some more. And the non-glatt? It stopped coming even though we won the beit din.

One last thing. I got into the business because Sholom Mordechai Rubashkin promised me he would sell me non-glatt at cost. His idea was that we would retail it cheaply, so cheaply that Russian Jews and others who did not keep kosher would buy from us. But when I bought the business and placed my first order, the non-glatt did not arrive.

Rubashkin meant well. But aspects of his business changed in the two weeks it took for the sale of the business to go through. He signed a distribution deal with TCP, and TCP was under the thumb of Rabbi Moshe Tuvia Lieff, the then-new “chief rabbi” of Minneapolis, and a popular speaker who also works for Agudth Israel. And Lieff and Rubashkin were childhood friends. Lieff would not let non-glatt into the Twin Cities.

13 years later, Rabbi Allen now realizes what we went through. The sad thing is, so does the US Department of Justice.

Lack of Meat Choices Not Kosher, Say Conservative Shuls in St. Paul

By NATHANIEL POPPER

July 21, 2006


When Amy Markon set out to find a cheaper source of kosher meat for her family, the mother of four had no idea what she was in for.

Since moving to St. Paul, Minn., seven years ago, Markon had grown increasingly bothered by her limited choices when it came to buying kosher beef. The woman, who belongs to a conservative synagogue, could find only meat that was certified glatt kosher, a more stringent — and ultimately more expensive — standard embraced in recent decades by most Orthodox authorities and consumers.

Like most congregants at Conservative synagogues, the glatt label meant little to Markon, so earlier this year she helped kick off her synagogue’s campaign to increase the availability of non-glatt kosher meat, dubbed “Choice in Kashruth.” This was easier said than done.

First, Markon and the Conservative rabbis she worked with ran up against the Orthodox supervision board, or Vaad, which would not allow non-glatt meat into the existing kosher supermarkets, according to Conservative rabbis. Next, Markon and the Conservative rabbis enlisted a new store — not under the supervision of the Orthodox Vaad — to order non-glatt meat from the local kosher distributor. The only problem, Markon said, was that after putting in orders for non-glatt meat, it rarely arrived; the manager of the store, a SuperValu, says she was told that the distributor was “pushing” glatt meat.

Finally, Markon and the SuperValu she enlisted went directly to AgriProcessors, the Postville, Iowa-based company that is the country’s largest producer of glatt and non-glatt fresh meat. When the first shipment came in last week, there was no non-glatt meat inside — and no explanation.

“We’ve been in a sort of stranglehold,” said Markon, who works at the local Jewish day school. “If we want to have the most people eating kosher food, and we don’t allow them the least expensive way to achieve that — that’s a great disservice.”

The local kosher distributor, Twin City Poultry, said that the Conservative community could have had non-glatt meat if it had placed its order properly. But representatives of the SuperValu that has worked with the Conservative Jews said that the store has tried to do just that, but has run up against unusual roadblocks.

“Some of my smaller distributors — like Asian specialties — have higher out-of-stock rates,” said Sarah Cooper, one of the owners of Cooper’s SuperValu. “But it’s not usually this bad, and it’s never been to the point where they can’t give you any of a product. That’s what’s been most frustrating.”

The struggle in Minnesota illuminates the current state of the kosher-meat market, in which consumers are captive to a few big companies. It used to be that every town with a sizable Jewish population — including St. Paul — had its own kosher butcher, or schochet. Now there are only four meat-packing companies that supply any significant volume of kosher beef to American consumers, and only one of those, AgriProcessors, produces fresh non-glatt meat (Hebrew National offers processed non-glatt kosher products, like hot dogs and bologna). The lone kosher distributor serving St. Paul is the only one for some 20 states, shipping all the way to Texas.

An expert on kashrut within the Conservative movement, Rabbi Paul Plotkin, says the consolidation of the industry has helped Conservative Jews in many ways by driving down prices and making kosher certification more reliable.

But a hint of the sorts of problems that can arise when a single market contains a small number of players could be seen a few weeks ago in an article in New York’s Jewish Week. The newspaper reported that kosher meat producers had been subpoenaed by a federal agency as part of an investigation into alleged antitrust issues. The subjects of those inquiries is still not known, and there is no evidence that the issues in Minnesota are related. What is clear is that the Conservative Jews in the Twin Cities-area have struggled to have access to meat that is cheaper and readily available to Jews as nearby as the local Conservative camp in Wisconsin, according to rabbis in Minnesota.

“There are people who are closing our choice in kashrut and unless we are vigilant about it, it ain’t going to be,” said Morris Allen, the religious leader of Beth Jacob Congregation in St. Paul. Allen is the rabbi who has brought together local Conservative congregations to address the lack of non-glatt kosher meat.

According to research that Allen did, in recent weeks non-glatt meat in nearby areas of the Midwest has been as much as 48% cheaper when it comes to Swiss steak, 23% for bologna and 15% for knockwurst.

In addition to the price issues, the struggles in Minnesota are a sign of a growing concern among Conservative rabbis about the lack of influence they exert in the kosher world, despite having congregants who eat kosher food.

“What Rabbi Allen is doing may be the next wave,” said Plotkin, who is chair of the kashruth subcommittee of the Conservative movement’s Committee on Jewish Law and Standards. “We’ve decided that for our communities, we need to be a little more involved.”

Plotkin said that the reason Conservative rabbis have not been involved is because Orthodox rabbis have provided expert certification for many years. But as Orthodox and Conservative standards have diverged somewhat, the Conservative movement has looked to gain more authority. Two years ago, the kashrut subcommittee worked with Hebrew National — the largest producer of kosher non-glatt beef — to make sure the product could be recommended to Conservative congregants.

In Minnesota, the current struggle began with a butting of heads over doughnuts. Krispy Kreme Doughnuts stores have been certified as kosher in many states, and when an outlet opened in Minnesota, a Conservative rabbi made sure that it hewed to the same standard. But a batch of doughnuts was brought to a local Jewish Community Center, Orthodox rabbis balked. They pointed to a barely noticed provision in state law — dating from the early 20th century — stating that kosher food would be determined by “Orthodox Hebrew standards.”

In New York, New Jersey and Maryland similar statutes were struck down as unconstitutional. But at least 10 states — including California and Massachusetts — still have the “Orthodox Hebrew” language. When the state legislature in Minnesota held hearings on whether to change the state’s kosher law, two Orthodox rabbis and two Conservative rabbis weighed in on opposite sides. The “Orthodox” language was eventually struck and replaced with a clause requiring that kosher labels specify the certifying rabbinic authority.

The doughnuts could now be declared kosher by Conservative rabbis, but the meat situation remained unchanged.

The two kosher stores in the Twin Cities are overseen by the local Orthodox Vaad, and both of them sold only glatt meat.

The word glatt refers to the smoothness of a cow’s lung. If the lung is free of lesions, it can be certified glatt; if lesions are detected, removed and found not to have punctured the lung, then meat can be considered kosher but not glatt. Industry insiders say that less than half of all cows end up qualifying as glatt, a relatively low ratio that accounts for the higher prices.

For centuries, Sephardic sages have ruled that Jewish law requires them to eat glatt. Ashkenazic authorities, on the other hand, ruled that though glatt was not required, adopting such a standard would help an individual avoid committing a possible transgression. In recent years, most Orthodox rabbis and consumers have taken this approach, but Conservative authorities have not.

Markon’s concern about the lack of non-glatt meat was a concern for was shared by Rabbi Paul Drazen, director of the United Synagogue for Conservative Judaism’s regional office. On trips to Chicago, Drazen noted that he could buy non-glatt brisket for $6.99 a pound, while in Minnesota glatt brisket was $14.99 a pound. He says he asked the head of the local Vaad, known as Minnesota Kosher, if the kosher stores could stock prepackaged non-glatt meat. Drazen says he was told it wouldn’t happen. The Orthodox rabbi who heads the Vaad, Moshe Lieff, could not be reached for comment.

Allen tackled the issue head on after St. Paul’s only kosher meat outlet went out of business last December. He held a meeting at his congregation in February, at which 100 people showed up and the “Choice in Kashruth” campaign was launched. He also met with the rabbis from the four other Conservative synagogues in the Twin Cities.

In the first experiment, Allen’s congregation ordered about 20 cases of non-glatt meat for Passover through the Cooper’s SuperValu in St. Paul. A few days before the holiday, word came back from the local distributor, Twin City Poultry, that none of the meat would come in. A mad rush ensued, in which a local Chabad-Lubavitch rabbi made a personal delivery of non-glatt meat from the Iowa plant of AgriProcessors.

The CEO of Twin City Poultry, Steve Cohen, said that the Passover mishap occurred because “meat is in such short supply around holidays.”

After the holidays, the SuperValu says it continued to have problems getting its non-glatt orders filled. Conservative rabbis and congregants say that they wonder whether the problems with Twin City Poultry came because two of the company’s owners — two brothers — are members of the synagogue led by Lieff, who had denied the earlier requests for non-glatt meat.

Sarah Cooper, the ordering director for SuperValu, says that when she asked Twin City Poultry about the difficulty getting non-glatt meat, she was told that the distributor was “trying to push glatt.”

Cohen denied that his company ever has pushed glatt meat over non-glatt meat. He declined to identify the other owners of the company, but did say that his company would supply whatever customers ordered.

“We’re here to sell, and we don’t make choices for our customers,” Cohen said.

SuperValu eventually gave up on Twin City as a source for non-glatt meat. With Allen’s help, it bypassed the distributor and made contact with AgriProcessors, the largest kosher slaughterhouse in the country. The Iowa-based company sells glatt meat under the Aaron’s Best label, and non-glatt meat under the David’s label. One of the ironies of the current situation is that the David’s brand is certified kosher by a Chabad-Lubavitch rabbi in St. Paul. That rabbi will not eat the meat himself, but so far even the Jewish Minnesotans who are willing to eat it have not been able to purchase any.

A few weeks ago SuperValu placed an order directly with AgriProcessors for David’s meat. After a number of delays, a shipment finally came in — but according to Cooper, the non-glatt meat was missing. “It’s really strange,” she said.

A spokesman for AgriProcessors, Mike Thomas, said that the company had “not been contacted by SuperValu about any problems fulfilling its orders.”

Since a Trader Joe’s opened in May in the suburbs of Minneapolis, the Jews of Minnesota have had one source for non-glatt meat. Trader Joe’s carries the David’s brand, which is ordered through corporate headquarters. But Drazen said that the store is far from where most Jews in the Twin Cities live, and it offers a relatively small selection of non-glatt meat. It was sold out when he last visited.

“I would think that with a free market,” Drazen said, “if there were people who wanted non-glatt meat, they would have that choice.”

Advertisements

39 Comments

Filed under Haredim, Jewish Leadership, Kosher Business?, Kosher Meat Scandal

39 responses to “FORWARD: Lack of Meat Choices Not Kosher

  1. PishPosh

    LOL. Finally people are waking up. I never thought that this day would come. Ive been pounding my neighborhood streets for years asking the shop merchants why this monoploy forced me to have to either pay thru the nose for glatt or go without. Some call this hiddur mitzvah in eating glatt, I call it coercion of the worst kind. Is an animal shected kehalacha and kosher but not glatt permissible? Yes!!! So dam them all, put it on the shelf and let us poor am haaretzes buy it. Dont keep my kashrut for me.

  2. Yochanan Lavie

    Early in the 20th century, women on the Lower East Side of Manhattan boycotted kosher meat for a time. They went w/o meat, or served trief meat only to the sick. I think the motive was price gouging. This is something you don’t see in history books, but a Yale historian talked in our shul about it. She uncovered old Yiddish news articles, etc. So this is not new. Does anybody know the details?

  3. PishPosh

    Yochanan thats fascinating and no Im sure many of us have not heard of this, but some I will start googling.

  4. Marc Gottlieb

    Maybe not directly related, but I’d sure like to know-

    Can someone please explain this need everyone has to out-Jew their neighbor? Everything’s glatt kosher. Even fish and milk is becoming assur, and it’s “justified” because someone might see that and mistakenly think meat and milk is kosher.

    Man, that is just so… unlikely. Let’s face it: we live in a world where Jews are only too eager to point out eachother’s shortcomings. Suddenly, people won’t eat in friends’ houses, just to show off the stringency of their observance. It’s insane and completely discouraging.

    Any thoughts?

  5. annonymous

    The corrupt business practices in most Jewish businesses is not news. Cheese, catering, meat, etc. Our community leaders have come up with a new way to profiteer–Has anyone looked at tuitions for 2006-2007?

    One respected school was proud to boast how they get together with ALL the local schools to set tuitions for the upcoming school year. Collusion and price fixing. Achduth is nice–schools of many types attend the meeting.

    Next time your approached to support a school ask why the principal makes x times what the teachers make.

  6. nachos

    Pish Posh:

    The forward wrote an article about two months ago detailing the whole history of the kosher meat boycott. It was very interesting.

    You can probably find it in their archives. Perhaps Shamarya can post a link.

  7. Isa

    About why everything has to be kosher:
    ‘Legitimate’ reasons are brought forth of course. One has to understand the more things that have to be kosher the more jobs it provides for the unemployable yeshiva student who knows nothing else.

  8. Neo-Conservaguy

    Amen!

  9. PishPosh

    Thanks Nachos Im off too look.

    And that Chalav Israel and Yain Nesach is another one that maybe Shmarya and even in collaboration with UOJ, find out why the ehemm GOY wine is forboten but its ok to have them directly preparing food in the kitchen of the restraunt? In other words when is what a GOY touches not treif???
    When he is touching it at below minimum wage so kehalacha tumah dosent adhere to those barely making a living, while their employers buy better wigs.(heavy sarcasm intended.)

  10. Franji

    ….and then, apart from a higher price on the invoice issued by the slaughterhouse to the butcher, who knows if the meat we are buying in glatt or not?

  11. avrohom

    all you gedoley pigs stop bickering about things you know nothing about (you such ignorants and stupid making such silly question about yayin nessech and food preparation) and stop badmouthing judaism; you have failed you r”Gedolim” have failed; jews are going to continue to learn torah eat slaughtered meat, do circumcision on their children…

    where you can do something positive instead is to show the shortcomings of your gedolim: those that brought terror and ruin to the citiziens of the state of israel; those who led jews astray by lulling them into deep slumber tha t”lebanon is quiet” by our withdrawal from there and we the gedolim left intact hesbollah and let them grow..and now we had no choice but enter this difficult war…thanks to the gedoyley scotty…just now another round katyuchas landed haifa …your sick gedolim borught this bloodbath and you ktnaey failure stop messing with judaism …

  12. Aaron

    Curious to hear how widespread this is. Is it just a Twin Cities problem, or do people in other cities have the same difficulties finding lower-priced non-glatt? And why would Rubashkin have a whole non-glatt product line (David’s) if nobody will carry & sell it?

    PishPosh, are you in Minn/St.P or somewhere else? Anyone else?

  13. Marc Gottlieb

    Avrohom-

    What are you talking about?

    “you such ignorants and stupid making such silly question about yayin nessech and food preparation”

    I can’t make heads or tails of your post. Calm yourself down, and re-post.

  14. avrohom

    let all yidden who want to keep torah and mitzvot behidur continue to strive. Boruch Hashem jews observe torah in the usa more than the earlier 1900’s and it is due to the efforts of jews who put theie lives to help their brethern to anable them to have kosher meat and kosher food that we have a proliferation of shomrey kashrut as never before…

    if the losers on these blog who are entrenched with thier hatred of hashem and his torah and jews who observe torah, are interested in helping mofre jews to observe torah, let them DO something…try to open other avenues in a kosher way to bring the price down…writing on blogs on matters like this (the sale of glatt only) does NOTHING to help the cause…try yourselves to make a venue that will do it in a kosher way…obviously for that you must some credibility that halacha gives to certain indivduals…undfortunately a person like you who hates torah and halacha may lose his “neemanoos” his credibility…maybe you find other people who still have credibility that they open another venue and sell kosher items (according to halacha) to people who would afford and watn only the lesser quality…

    but in any event: you and all your bloggers who share your hatred must do teshuva for all the things happening today in israel beecause you followed blindly all your gedolim in letting terrorists harbor a state within a state next to our border and every minute earlier that you make teshuva is of utmost importtant…thereforew lobby all your senators and congressmen…talk to all your liberal writers and columnists to stop their writing against israel andlet them do what they need to proptect thesmelves…all the disaster now is bacauseof your friends ….so many jews suffering…dying…and you have time fto malign observant jews…what a chutpah from a nobody…

  15. PishPosh

    I find it interesting that the Torah is not afraid to show the shortcomings of some of our greatest, Moshe, Shaul, Dovid, Shimshon, Yiftach, and thereby teaches us that no one is above reproach for their actions to help us avoid a cult of personality worship and look the otherwayness,(Uriah gave Batsheba a get while in battle, yea thats something todays snaky Rabbis would use to avoid being charged with adultery) and here is this Abe fellow wanting everyone to do just that, look the other way. Sorry Abe it aint going to happen.

  16. Neo-Conservaguy

    “avrohom” is a liar and a supporter of the corrupt system that this post addresses. Small wonder he attacks those who are actively engaged in an effort to affect justice in this matter. The end result of such justice will be better availability of lower priced non-glatt kosher meat, which will only encourage more Jews to choose such food.

    Back to your cave, “avrohom”, until you learn to not destroy God’s world with your “perfect Torah”.

  17. avrohom

    Dear pish-posh

    “I find it interesting that the Torah is not afraid to show the shortcomings of some of our greatest, Moshe, Shaul, Dovid, Shimshon, Yiftach, and thereby teaches us that no one is above reproach for their actions to help us avoid a cult of personality worship and look the otherwayness,…”

    You and the other children of this kindergarden blog fail to have the basic knowledge to understand what you are talking about. You repeat mantras of reform jews about the evil of rabbis etc.

    Let me try to get this to you and the kids of the block: Moshe and Dovid and Shimshon are MOST OF THE TIME REVERED by the Torah. The Torah does NOT the whole time wrting how corrupt they were; on the contrary the Torah teaches us how they are to be respected; how they Jews revered for the most part and obeyed Moshe. when a few times the opposite happened in midst of 39 40 years there was turmoil..but overall there was a system where Aharon Moshe were highly revered and respected and loved and beloved. They were regarded as such for they were the people whom Hashem has chosen that they lead the people and that they connect the people of Israel to Hashem. So too, with our prophets and leaders like Dovid who is revered for all later generations as “dovid melech yisroel chay vekayom” and repepeat his songs in the daily and shabbos prayers etc.

    Occsainally: the *torah* and a prophet sent directly from Hashem gives them messages how not to fall into certain patters and how a certain course of action is not according to the standards expected for people on their level.

    But Torah is not a scotty blog and a place where german informers defame Jewish LEaders.

    ” and here is this Abe fellow wanting everyone to do just that, look the other way. Sorry Abe it aint going to happen”.

    Dear push: that is not what Abe says; he sayd that you should emphasize in the positive. Do not be a german informer. You want fix. Show where the problem needs to be fixed. But do not become the german informaer and officcer who mocks and derides slaughter and circumcision and other judaic practices.

    Dear Conserv- gay

    “”avrohom” is a liar and a supporter of the corrupt system that this post addresses.”

    You wrong, Abe is fighting the german informers…the lie propganda of goebbels..

    ” Small wonder he attacks those who are actively engaged in an effort to affect justice in this matter”.

    They are not engaged in “justice”; (germans were also engaged in this kind of “justice”) they are engaged indefaming jews and Torah and their beleif in Hashem and the Torah.

    The end result of such justice will be no availability of higher standard of kosher meat, and to lessen Jews who are disenfranchised from judaism to seek a connection to judaism and to eat kosher.

    These german informers are extremely dangerous to judaism where they once portrayed themselves as the “moral” correct individuals (like the germans) but their nefarious plans was so diabolic which could not have been left alone.

    Let’s hope scotty, pish, conversegay repepent and once again be jews who are proud with thier Torah and in their beleif of Hashem.

  18. Anonymous

    I tried doing a quick microeconomic analysis of why a company would not want to sell non-glatt; it is hard to discern any true a profit motive.

    For example, a distribuor could sell the non-glatt meat for a price close to the Glatt. Glatt only consumers would pay the Glatt price, while persons who do not care about Glatt, but do about Kosher, would pay the close, but not exact, Glatt price. This real world scenario would seem to maximize profit.

    It is hard to see why that profits would be maximized by not selling Glatt, and effectively shutting yourself out of a market where some consumers would like to eat Kosher but are unwilling to pay the Glatt price.

    The easier thing to see is that profits would be maximized by increasing your potential market and selling both Glatt and non-Glatt meat. I suppose that somebody could concoct a scenario where not selling a product increases profits but it would be just that, concocted.

    The conclusion is that if a company does not sell non-Glatt it is most likely for religious/ideological reasons and not for profit maximizing reasons.

    If anybody disagrees with thsi, fine. I am willing to be convinced otherwise. But, please, do not just disagree. Outline your assumptions about the market and show rogorously why not selling Glatt would maximize profit.

    I suspect that there appaers to be a profit motive because there is a big difference in other markets between the price of Glatt and non-Glatt meat. But a company with true monopoly power could easily raise the price of non-Glatt meat close to the price of Glatt. If there is a profit motive it far from obvious.

  19. Anonymous

    “You and the other children of this kindergarden blog fail to have the basic knowledge to understand what you are talking about. You repeat mantras of reform jews about the evil of rabbis etc.”

    Do you always read things into others statments? Nobody mentioned Reform Jews at all, and your Rabbis make a good effort at creating their image on their own.

    “Let me try to get this to you and the kids of the block: Moshe and Dovid and Shimshon are MOST OF THE TIME REVERED by the Torah. The Torah does NOT the whole time wrting how corrupt they were; on the contrary the Torah teaches us how they are to be respected; how they Jews revered for the most part and obeyed Moshe. when a few times the opposite happened in midst of 39 40 years there was turmoil..but overall there was a system where Aharon Moshe were highly revered and respected and loved and beloved.”

    And nobody said the Torah is berating them daily, nor did anybody here state they dont love and respect our ancestors, but you seem to put your Rabbis on the same footing with these messengers of Hashem and they aint and they are causing turmoil day after day, and like Korach you wish to follow them into the earth and drag the rest of us down with you.

    “But Torah is not a scotty blog and a place where german informers defame Jewish LEaders.”

    No Scotty Blog is a place to discuss how your poor defamed Jewish leaders are cheating, molesting, swindling, the rest of the people while they and you portray themelves as Morally above reproach. These Rabbis stink to high hell and if you lie with them you stink too. Ever hear of Maras Eyn???? The majority of Rabbis are honest, upright Jews, but why should we put up with the rotten apples who destroy all the good that the herliche Rabbis accomplish.

    Your Rabbis are like Rechovam, arrogant and divisive, and if they dont like someones opinon/statement/request they will chastise them with whips and scorpions like he threatened the 10 Shvatim, thru cherms, physical violence and ostracizing Thats what your Rabbis want to do, but you what? They are going down and you as an apparent accesory are going down with them.

  20. avrohom

    “You and the other children of this kindergarden blog fail to have the basic knowledge to understand what you are talking about. You repeat mantras of reform jews about the evil of rabbis etc.”

    Do you always read things into others statments? Nobody mentioned Reform Jews at all, and your Rabbis make a good effort at creating their image on their own.

    yOU DO NOT NEED TOMENTION THE WORD “REFORM”; ALL OF YOU THINK AND ACT LIKE THE REFORM AND ARE GERMAN INFORMERS.

    “Let me try to get this to you and the kids of the block: Moshe and Dovid and Shimshon are MOST OF THE TIME REVERED by the Torah. The Torah does NOT the whole time wrting how corrupt they were; on the contrary the Torah teaches us how they are to be respected; how they Jews revered for the most part and obeyed Moshe. when a few times the opposite happened in midst of 39 40 years there was turmoil..but overall there was a system where Aharon Moshe were highly revered and respected and loved and beloved.”

    “And nobody said the Torah is berating them daily”

    bUT *YOU* THE SICK DEMENTED SCOTTY CLUB BERATE THEM every day and night…
    ,”
    nor did anybody here state they dont love and respect our ancestors…”

    YOU DON’T SHOW ANY LOVE FOR OUR ANCERTORS, FOR THE TORAH FOR THOSE THAT LIVE ACCORDING TO THE LAWS OF THE TORAH…
    ,
    ” but you seem to put your Rabbis on the same footing with these messengers of Hashem…”

    NO SICKO, YOU MENTIONED ABOUT THE MISHAPS OF MOSHE DOVID SHIMSHON AND YOU PUT YOURSELF IN THE POSITION OF THE ONES WHO GIVE MUSSAR TO MOSHE DOVID AND SHIMSHON; SO I TELL YOU GERMAN INFORMERS THAT THE TORAH DOES NOT BERATE THEM; OTC IT TELLS US TO HONOUR OUR SAGES. AND THE SAME TORAH SAYS “YIFTACH BEDOROY KSHMUEL BEDOROY” THAT WE MUST LOOK UP TO OUR LEADERS IN OUR GENERATION AS WE SHOULD HAVE LOOKED UP ON THE LEADERS OF AN EARLIER GENERATION.

    ” and they aint and they are causing turmoil day after day,”

    THE SCOTTY OF THE WORLD ARE DESTROYING THE FABRIC OF JUDAISM…

    “and like Korach you wish to follow them into the earth and drag the rest of us down with you”.

    KOPRACH WAS SAWLLOWED INTO THE EARTH FOR FIGHTING THE LEADERSHIP AND THE ESTABLISHMENT AND CAUSING DIVISIVENESS SO TOO WILL BE THE FATE AND END FOR THE SCOTTY KIDS THE INHERITORS OF KORACH…

    “But Torah is not a scotty blog and a place where german informers defame Jewish LEaders.”

    “No Scotty Blog is a place to discuss how your poor defamed Jewish leaders are cheating, molesting, swindling, the rest of the people while they and you portray themelves as Morally above reproach”.

    THAT IS EXACTLY WHAT KORACH SAID THAT MOSHE WAS CHEATING AND SWINDLING..AND WE KNOW OF HIS FATE…

    “The majority of Rabbis are honest, upright Jews,”

    THAT IS NOT WHAT YOUR BLOG PORTRAY; IT TRIES TO PORTRAY HOW ALL FRUM AND CHAREDI RABBIS ARE CORRUPT

    “but why should we put up with the rotten apples who destroy all the good that the herliche Rabbis accomplish”.

    EXACTLY. WHY SHOULD EHRLICHE RABBONIM AND EHRLICHE YIDDEN SUFFER FOR THE ILL OF THE GERMAN INFORMERS THE INHERIOTS OF THE PUBLISHERS OF THE PROTOCOLS OF ZION?

  21. Please Close This Blog for the 9 Days

    Scotty is trying to pin the failure of his meat market, and his subsequent debts to the Rubashkin enterprises, on everything except his incompetence.

    Chabad = Success
    Scotty = Failure

    Guess what! Scotty hates Chabad

    Rubashkin = Success
    Scotty = Failure

    Guess what! Scotty hates the Rubashkins!

    Aish = Success
    Scotty = Failure

    Guess what! Scotty hates Aish!

    Gedolim get respect
    Scotty gets derision

    Scotty hates the gedolim.

    Now, no one is beyond reproach in these final days of galus. But Scotty is not one who has the right to criticize anyone but himself.

    How about closing this hateful blog for the 9 Days?

  22. Neo-Conservaguy

    Another example of the twisted, sick logic that haredim are taught in their “schools”…

  23. avrohom

    CLOSE THIS BLOG FOREVER!

  24. Nigritude Ultramarine

    if the losers on these blog who are entrenched…..blah blah blah

    Whatever, loser

  25. 1. My meat market did not fail.

    2. I sold my interest to another party.

    3. At no time did I owe Rubashkin money.

  26. Shmarya the Liar

    Nice try, Scott. Next time be careful what you say about your meat market, especially in Yerushalayim where the walls have ears.

  27. I look forward to seeing your “proof.” Don’t forget to include your real name and address so we can all check out you “honesty.”

  28. My sources tell me you’re in Crown Heights, where “walls have ears.”

  29. avrohom

    you a good for nothing a german informer wgho does BAD FOR JEWS!

    CLOSE THIS BLOG AND HATRED FOR JEWS FOREVER!

  30. Shmarya the Liar

    All I know is that:

    1) I met you one Shabbos when you were on the way to the home of a well known meshichist in Yerushalayim. You harangued me with a hateful screed against meshichists and their ideas (and BTW I never really was and certainly am now not a meshichist so I was only too happy to listen to you). Before that, I had met you at a certain shul in the ir haatika.

    2) Second time I met you you hocked me a chinik about who knows what and mentioned you barely had money for shmura matza.

    3) I checked you out with a reliable friend (at the time I had nothing against you and a lot more against some of those you were railing about as I never cared for the nonsense going on in said shul, nor was I ever much of a meshichist even in the confused time when our paths crossed) and he told me you had informed him that “the Jewish mafia put your meat market out of business.”

    And in any case, if, as you said, Sholom Rubashkin meant well, why are you constantly going after Rubashkin? Your problem is with Lieff.

    Incidentally, are you aware that Moshe Rubashkin is not even part of the family business?

    You are spewing a lot of wind, obscuring your couple of good points, and spreading sinas chinam at a time when even those who, for instance, were completely against Olmert, are now putting their differences aside.

  31. 1. I had little money because I worked for Chabad and Chabad had not paid my salary in months.

    2. Your reliable friend is mistaken. All I may have said is I ***sold*** my business because of the mafia-like behavior of the Jews who run the kosher meat business.

    3. Moshe Rubashkin was an offical listed as part of Agri at least until he went to jail.

  32. No Demonstrations

    OK – then my friend was mistaken. Which “Chabad” did not pay your salary? Chabad is very fragmented in Yerushalayim and I have no idea who or what is official.

    As for official listed as part of Agri, that may be true – a lot of closely held non-public businesses put as many relatives as possible in as shareholders for very legitimate reasons – but Moshe had nothing to do with the running of Agri.

  33. Eliezer Greenspan

    I would like to clarrify a few points:

    1. It is a fact that Shmarya sold his ownership of the kosher meat market.

    2. The reason I know this to be a fact is because I was the one that bought it.

    3. Schmarya may, or may not, be a brilliant business man. The fact is that the meat market in St. Paul was small. It also took a big hit when more serious competition opened up in Minneapolis.

    4. I may not agree with many of the things that Schmarya says but I do know one thing. He is very honest and does not lie!

    5. I think he has very high standards and perhaps that is part of the problem. When you try to apply high standards to people you may be very disappointed. People are human and make mistakes. In fact many people make many, many mistakes. I include myself in the mistake making category.

  34. CHAYIM

    Greenspan

    How can you say shamrya is a “honest” man when he besmirches and accuses and badmouths people without any source. Look how much filth and smut came of his immoral self on this blog.

  35. No Demonstrations

    Well, there is a mature way to handle this and there is this way.

    Chabad cannot do everything for everyone. For whatever reason (and I understand why as there are many questions as to the real origin of the Falasha), the Rebbe did not feel Ethiopian Jews were a priority. Fine. You feel they are. So either pull away quietly from Chabad and go to work for your cause, or accept the Rebbe’s judgment as a Chossid. Do not bash something that has done more than you ever can for Judaism. You’re tilting at windmills.

    You don’t like the meshichisten? Fine – I don’t like them either. Every year their number dwindles and if it were not for attacks it would dwindle faster. The nuts among them have no voice and are now despised by all parties. I have not been in 770 in ages myself because of the mess they made. I don’t miss it – I have a shul where I am happy, friends in my shul, and that’s that.

    I for one do not think Chabad has an effective bikur cholim program in NY. I also know I don’t have time or the knowledge or inclination to set anything like that up myself. And that is why, when someone bashes Satmar in front of me, I tell them off but good. Because I know that Satmar Bikur Cholim will be there for them when they land in the hospital, as we all do sometime.

    You know what? Berel Lazar sucks. I lived in Moscow for 13 years and I know what he is and who he is – a puppet of a criminal and a puppet of his wife, and a lackey of Putin whom I cannot figure out and who in turn is a lackey of very sinister interests. He’ll convert anyone to Judaism for the right amount of money or if asked to do so by his handlers. Marina Roscha is full of shiksas looking for Jewish guys. But have you ever heard of Reb Yitzchak Kogan? Yeah, he says Yechi – but do you have any idea how much good he does in Moscow and what he did during the hard times? Do you know what he thinks of Lazar and co?

    The meat inyan? An expose of Rubashkin – let him alone – you really want to aid anti-Semitic PETA and the self-hating Forward? Do you understand the intricacies of the issue? Union labor designations vs. what people REALLY do? An expose of this Lieff situation is another story – it goes on in Montreal as well and that really does raise prices and limit consumer choice. The trade action? Nonsense! You want Alle to produce Chabad shechita and Rubashkin to do Satmar? The latter may actually happen – but the former? They’ll schecht flying pigs first!

    You want a real monopoly? Royal Wine Corp. They deserve anti-trust action and who knows what else. Now they are messing around with mehadrin food – their Gefen brand is of no great quality and is more expensive than Lieber’s and others. Why not break new ground and look into that situation and really help consumers?

    Handle things maturely. Otherwise, you are worse than everyone you are criticizing.

    Yes, there are problems everywhere. Some of them we need Moshiach to solve. Others, we have no power to solve. For the few where we can have influence, we need to be as the sons of Aharon, not as the yentes of Ponim Chadashos and UOJ.

  36. Michael Ben Drosai

    Eliezer – we all make mistakes – even you (like buying scotty’s failing business

    BTW for all you price fixing conspiracists – less than 35% of the beef shechted at Rubash ends up glatt leaving him with a fair quantity of non-glatt meat with ready markets nationwide – irnically, on the east coast we got deliveries of the non-glatt but there’s not usually enough glatt in the orders – where’s the economic incentive to withhold non-glatt?

  37. D

    I second Michael’s view. Here in New England there is plenty of David’s (alongside the Aaron’s) in the kosher sections of the local Shaw’s markets. It must be a mover because it keeps coming back with fresher dates week to week.

    BTW, Michael, that is an interesting handle you are using. You don’t eat your Shabbos cholent near raw, do you? 😀

  38. The Real Ben Drusoy :)

    Perhaps he feels that this blog is half-baked….

  39. Anonymous

    personally, I’m with rashi – 1/3 done (must’ve been my legal training)
    reading this blog over time, I’d say that this blog is actually mitztamek v’ra lo

Leave a Reply

Fill in your details below or click an icon to log in:

WordPress.com Logo

You are commenting using your WordPress.com account. Log Out / Change )

Twitter picture

You are commenting using your Twitter account. Log Out / Change )

Facebook photo

You are commenting using your Facebook account. Log Out / Change )

Google+ photo

You are commenting using your Google+ account. Log Out / Change )

Connecting to %s