My View: Lebanon – What Went Wrong, And Why

As criticism of the handling of the Lebanon War mounts, spurred on by the return of reservists who fought in Lebanon – often without the proper equipment and sometimes even without food and water – several things have become clear:

1. The army suffered greatly from a series of budget cuts begun in 1998 and dramatically escalated during Benjamin Netanyahu’s tenure as Finance Minister.

2. Money that could have been used to properly equip the army went instead to cover other areas of the budget.

3. State support of haredim through its various welfare programs takes money away from very important things like national defense. In other words, there is no free lunch, and a community of people that does not value work, instead intentionally depending on state welfare, carries with it higher costs than is often realized.

4. The IDF spent a huge amount of money planning and implementing the withdrawal from Gush Katif and northern Samaria. It also spent much of its training on that issue, rather than Hezbollah. In other words, if the settlers had accepted the decision of the government, taken their compensation and moved to the Negev or central Israel, the IDF could have spent the last two years doing what it is really supposed to – preparing and training for national defense.

5. The over-reliance on air strikes seems to be based on two factors. A) Once the IDF’s preferred battle plan – one that was creative and relied on surprise – was nixed by Olmert & Co., the IDF was faced with a frontal war against well-entrenched and trained terrorists possessing weapons often on par or better than the IDF’s. Worse yet, the element of surprise was lost by Olmert’s foolishness. B) It was clear to senior level IDF officers long before this war that the IDF had been seriously damaged by three things: 1. Deep budget cuts, 2. Preoccupation with the territories, and, 3. Demoralization caused by the settlers reaction to the Gush Katif withdrawal. Therefore the IDF was reluctant to enter a ground war on Hezbollah’s terms. Olmert could not or would not understand this.

Clearly, there is lots of blame to go around. Israel lives in a neighborhood that demands lightning quick defense and overwhelming deterrence. To compromise either risks the lives of millions of Israelis. Olmert, Peretz and Livni have done just that – but so have the haredim (including Chabad) and the settlers.

One cannot demand a robust defense and overwhelming deterrence as one sits and studies and intentionally collects welfare. One cannot do so as one diverts millions of dollars and thousands of troops away from national defense as one has a collective hissy fit in Gush Katif. One cannot expect one’s army to have the highest morale when one has spent much of the last two years comparing their actions to the Nazis and the Gush Katif withdrawal to the Holocaust, then topping this off with refusal to serve and calls for disobedience.

Just as Netanyahu’s reckless budget cuts endangered soldiers in this war, so did the misbehavior of haredim and settlers.

What must be fixed in the IDF will, God willing, be fixed, and politicians will fall because of their incompetence.

But can the same be said about the haredim and the settlers? Will a correction take place? If not, the rot will grow and spread, adding to the corrosion of Israeli society from within much the way extreme post-zionism has, and the outcome of the next war, bungled or not, may God forbid be far worse than today’s.

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36 Comments

Filed under Current Affairs, Haredim, Israel, Modern Orthodoxy

36 responses to “My View: Lebanon – What Went Wrong, And Why

  1. avrohom

    PAul: you see what the blog’s owner holds about the settlers and the disengagement!

    Shmarya,

    At least you are honest. But you should be ashmaed of yourself. That you are unable to say that “i erred” . You idols and zeal to false piety (in your false perception of the world) cannot allow you to see the oobvious and say:

    the greatest mistake of all that led to this blunder, that was the lfieforce within the blunder was and is: THE IDOLATRY OF RUNNIGN TO THE ENEMY AND TURNING TO HIM THE OTHER CHEEK…THE IDOLATRY THAT THE FALSE “ISMS” OF THE WORLD WILL WORK TO SOLVED THE PROBLEM…THE IDOLATRY THAT DOES NOT ALLOW YOU TO SEE THATYOUR GOYISEHE SECULAR VALUES DO NOT ALLOW YOU TO SEE HOW SETTLING EVEWRY INCH IN ERETS YISROEL IS THE ONLY THING THAT WORKED TO KEEP ISRAEL STRONG…

    While i could see that you make some points in 1, 2, 3, your ommsion of the most point shows your egotistical inability to say (like all others) “i made a mistake”. Your ommission that Oslo led to all of this…is part of the same idolatry.

    Furthermore: you have the gall to make your number 4 point: you hack a tchaynick and do not begin to make any sense. The settlers ‘s refusal to their expulsion cannot begin to be a reason for israel’s military incabality. How in the worlds you make that connection is beyond me. It is because you hate the steradfastnessof people who have a REAL jewish interest and actually PROTECT EVERY CITIZEN IN ERETS YISROEL.

    The facts are just the opposite from what you wrote: The IDF was not ready for any of this war, because you and your friends inculcated in them the false hope that the messiah will arrive with Oslo. Then you brought into them the false hope that the messiah will arive with Camp DAvid!! then the flase messaih will arrive with the disengagement. You have told the people and the demoralized youth and soldiers that the solution is “politically”. Yuo have told them that the solution is to “make concessions”. YOu hav told them that the thousands of deaths over the wars are FOR NAUGHT. You have told that you want to rid yourself from the real connection with the LAnd: The promise by G-d that it belongs to every Jew. You have also brought into their minds the issue of being really impotent to make any dent with regards to theri security: you have borught the suicide nbombers that killed obver thousand over the decade and wounded and maimed thousands moer…you have brought the Intifada !! and the soldeirs saw how their deterrence was from day to day shatttered more and more…you have brought Hamastan to accepted as a legitimate entity… you have brought the idea thAT TERROR PAYS: BY UNILATERALLY GOING OUT FROM LEBANON (REMEMBER THE “fOUR MOTHERS” AND THEIR COMPANY AND YOUR LEFTISTS ISTUPID IDEAS THAT BROUGHT) NASSRALLAH IN OUR BACK YARD and your ideas of blaming the setlers brought the katyuchas to 10,000,0000 OF PEOPLE TO BE DISLOCATED FROM THEIR HOMES! THIS WAS BROUGHT BY ALL THE “PEACENIKS’ AND THE “DISENGAGMEENTS AND THE COVNERGENCE STUPID TALKSand all this began when the “settlers” became the “sair laazael” that they were blamed for having the IDF overresource thesemlves to “protect them”. W saw immediately what kind of baloney these words were: as soon as the expulsion began the KASSAAMS BEGAN SSHOWERING…THE HAMASTAN UNDERSTOOD THAT TERROR PAYS…THAT THEY ACCOPMLISHED EXPELLING 9,000 JEWS FROM THEIR OWN HOMES…AND FOR YOUR INFO: BEFORE ANY TRALKS ABOUT RELINQUISHING THE HOMES AND TERRORTORIES OF THWE JEWS TO THE GOYIM THERE WAS NEVER SUCH INSECURITY AS WE HAVE EXPEIRENCED SINCE ALL YOUR COCKMAMMAIE IDEAS OF “LAND FOR PEACE”.

    i THOGUHT THAT YOU WERE AT LEAST HONEST. yOU ATTACK CERTAIN THINGS BUT YOU ACKNOWLEDGE THAT YOUR POSITIONS ARE AT FAULT ALSO. I see that you are made from the garbage that you project unto others. You have the chutzpah to place the blame on the settlers for all of your faults that you brought this disaster upon all jews ine erets yisroel. Actually when the setllers were there the soliders were more secure….the soldiers did not need to endanger themsevles to fight the enemy under a demoralization that they must pay attention to what the “world” says…now with theat mindset inculcated by your goyishe idols they had to pay attention what the “world” says and we saw how kana affected the war and thelist goes on…

    but the point of your message is: YOU ARE A BIG IMMORAL HYPOCHRITE AND HAVE THE CHUTZPAH TO ATTACK THE GROUP THAT ROUGHT THE MOST SECURTY TO ALL OF IRAEL WHEN YOU ARE THE ONE TO BLAME FOR ALL THE DISASTERS…

  2. avrohom

    PAul: you see what the blog’s owner holds about the settlers and the disengagement!

    Shmarya,

    At least you are honest. But you should be ashmaed of yourself. That you are unable to say that “i erred” . You idols and zeal to false piety (in your false perception of the world) cannot allow you to see the oobvious and say:

    the greatest mistake of all that led to this blunder, that was the lfieforce within the blunder was and is: THE IDOLATRY OF RUNNIGN TO THE ENEMY AND TURNING TO HIM THE OTHER CHEEK…THE IDOLATRY THAT THE FALSE “ISMS” OF THE WORLD WILL WORK TO SOLVED THE PROBLEM…THE IDOLATRY THAT DOES NOT ALLOW YOU TO SEE THATYOUR GOYISEHE SECULAR VALUES DO NOT ALLOW YOU TO SEE HOW SETTLING EVEWRY INCH IN ERETS YISROEL IS THE ONLY THING THAT WORKED TO KEEP ISRAEL STRONG…

    While i could see that you make some points in 1, 2, 3, your ommsion of the most point shows your egotistical inability to say (like all others) “i made a mistake”. Your ommission that Oslo led to all of this…is part of the same idolatry.

    Furthermore: you have the gall to make your number 4 point: you hack a tchaynick and do not begin to make any sense. The settlers ‘s refusal to their expulsion cannot begin to be a reason for israel’s military incabality. How in the worlds you make that connection is beyond me. It is because you hate the steradfastnessof people who have a REAL jewish interest and actually PROTECT EVERY CITIZEN IN ERETS YISROEL.

    The facts are just the opposite from what you wrote: The IDF was not ready for any of this war, because you and your friends inculcated in them the false hope that the messiah will arrive with Oslo. Then you brought into them the false hope that the messiah will arive with Camp DAvid!! then the flase messaih will arrive with the disengagement. You have told the people and the demoralized youth and soldiers that the solution is “politically”. Yuo have told them that the solution is to “make concessions”. YOu hav told them that the thousands of deaths over the wars are FOR NAUGHT. You have told that you want to rid yourself from the real connection with the LAnd: The promise by G-d that it belongs to every Jew. You have also brought into their minds the issue of being really impotent to make any dent with regards to theri security: you have borught the suicide nbombers that killed obver thousand over the decade and wounded and maimed thousands moer…you have brought the Intifada !! and the soldeirs saw how their deterrence was from day to day shatttered more and more…you have brought Hamastan to accepted as a legitimate entity… you have brought the idea thAT TERROR PAYS: BY UNILATERALLY GOING OUT FROM LEBANON (REMEMBER THE “fOUR MOTHERS” AND THEIR COMPANY AND YOUR LEFTISTS ISTUPID IDEAS THAT BROUGHT) NASSRALLAH IN OUR BACK YARD and your ideas of blaming the setlers brought the katyuchas to 10,000,0000 OF PEOPLE TO BE DISLOCATED FROM THEIR HOMES! THIS WAS BROUGHT BY ALL THE “PEACENIKS’ AND THE “DISENGAGMEENTS AND THE COVNERGENCE STUPID TALKSand all this began when the “settlers” became the “sair laazael” that they were blamed for having the IDF overresource thesemlves to “protect them”. W saw immediately what kind of baloney these words were: as soon as the expulsion began the KASSAAMS BEGAN SSHOWERING…THE HAMASTAN UNDERSTOOD THAT TERROR PAYS…THAT THEY ACCOPMLISHED EXPELLING 9,000 JEWS FROM THEIR OWN HOMES…AND FOR YOUR INFO: BEFORE ANY TRALKS ABOUT RELINQUISHING THE HOMES AND TERRORTORIES OF THWE JEWS TO THE GOYIM THERE WAS NEVER SUCH INSECURITY AS WE HAVE EXPEIRENCED SINCE ALL YOUR COCKMAMMAIE IDEAS OF “LAND FOR PEACE”.

    i THOGUHT THAT YOU WERE AT LEAST HONEST. yOU ATTACK CERTAIN THINGS BUT YOU ACKNOWLEDGE THAT YOUR POSITIONS ARE AT FAULT ALSO. I see that you are made from the garbage that you project unto others. You have the chutzpah to place the blame on the settlers for all of your faults that you brought this disaster upon all jews ine erets yisroel. Actually when the setllers were there the soliders were more secure….the soldiers did not need to endanger themsevles to fight the enemy under a demoralization that they must pay attention to what the “world” says…now with theat mindset inculcated by your goyishe idols they had to pay attention what the “world” says and we saw how kana affected the war and thelist goes on…

    but the point of your message is: YOU ARE A BIG IMMORAL HYPOCHRITE AND HAVE THE CHUTZPAH TO ATTACK THE GROUP THAT ROUGHT THE MOST SECURTY TO ALL OF IRAEL WHEN YOU ARE THE ONE TO BLAME FOR ALL THE DISASTERS…

  3. avrohom

    PAul: you see what the blog’s owner holds about the settlers and the disengagement!

    Shmarya,

    At least you are honest. But you should be ashmaed of yourself. That you are unable to say that “i erred” . You idols and zeal to false piety (in your false perception of the world) cannot allow you to see the oobvious and say:

    the greatest mistake of all that led to this blunder, that was the lfieforce within the blunder was and is: THE IDOLATRY OF RUNNIGN TO THE ENEMY AND TURNING TO HIM THE OTHER CHEEK…THE IDOLATRY THAT THE FALSE “ISMS” OF THE WORLD WILL WORK TO SOLVED THE PROBLEM…THE IDOLATRY THAT DOES NOT ALLOW YOU TO SEE THATYOUR GOYISEHE SECULAR VALUES DO NOT ALLOW YOU TO SEE HOW SETTLING EVEWRY INCH IN ERETS YISROEL IS THE ONLY THING THAT WORKED TO KEEP ISRAEL STRONG…

    While i could see that you make some points in 1, 2, 3, your ommsion of the most point shows your egotistical inability to say (like all others) “i made a mistake”. Your ommission that Oslo led to all of this…is part of the same idolatry.

    Furthermore: you have the gall to make your number 4 point: you hack a tchaynick and do not begin to make any sense. The settlers ‘s refusal to their expulsion cannot begin to be a reason for israel’s military incabality. How in the worlds you make that connection is beyond me. It is because you hate the steradfastnessof people who have a REAL jewish interest and actually PROTECT EVERY CITIZEN IN ERETS YISROEL.

    The facts are just the opposite from what you wrote: The IDF was not ready for any of this war, because you and your friends inculcated in them the false hope that the messiah will arrive with Oslo. Then you brought into them the false hope that the messiah will arive with Camp DAvid!! then the flase messaih will arrive with the disengagement. You have told the people and the demoralized youth and soldiers that the solution is “politically”. Yuo have told them that the solution is to “make concessions”. YOu hav told them that the thousands of deaths over the wars are FOR NAUGHT. You have told that you want to rid yourself from the real connection with the LAnd: The promise by G-d that it belongs to every Jew. You have also brought into their minds the issue of being really impotent to make any dent with regards to theri security: you have borught the suicide nbombers that killed obver thousand over the decade and wounded and maimed thousands moer…you have brought the Intifada !! and the soldeirs saw how their deterrence was from day to day shatttered more and more…you have brought Hamastan to accepted as a legitimate entity… you have brought the idea thAT TERROR PAYS: BY UNILATERALLY GOING OUT FROM LEBANON (REMEMBER THE “fOUR MOTHERS” AND THEIR COMPANY AND YOUR LEFTISTS ISTUPID IDEAS THAT BROUGHT) NASSRALLAH IN OUR BACK YARD and your ideas of blaming the setlers brought the katyuchas to 10,000,0000 OF PEOPLE TO BE DISLOCATED FROM THEIR HOMES! THIS WAS BROUGHT BY ALL THE “PEACENIKS’ AND THE “DISENGAGMEENTS AND THE COVNERGENCE STUPID TALKSand all this began when the “settlers” became the “sair laazael” that they were blamed for having the IDF overresource thesemlves to “protect them”. W saw immediately what kind of baloney these words were: as soon as the expulsion began the KASSAAMS BEGAN SSHOWERING…THE HAMASTAN UNDERSTOOD THAT TERROR PAYS…THAT THEY ACCOPMLISHED EXPELLING 9,000 JEWS FROM THEIR OWN HOMES…AND FOR YOUR INFO: BEFORE ANY TRALKS ABOUT RELINQUISHING THE HOMES AND TERRORTORIES OF THWE JEWS TO THE GOYIM THERE WAS NEVER SUCH INSECURITY AS WE HAVE EXPEIRENCED SINCE ALL YOUR COCKMAMMAIE IDEAS OF “LAND FOR PEACE”.

    i THOGUHT THAT YOU WERE AT LEAST HONEST. yOU ATTACK CERTAIN THINGS BUT YOU ACKNOWLEDGE THAT YOUR POSITIONS ARE AT FAULT ALSO. I see that you are made from the garbage that you project unto others. You have the chutzpah to place the blame on the settlers for all of your faults that you brought this disaster upon all jews ine erets yisroel. Actually when the setllers were there the soliders were more secure….the soldiers did not need to endanger themsevles to fight the enemy under a demoralization that they must pay attention to what the “world” says…now with theat mindset inculcated by your goyishe idols they had to pay attention what the “world” says and we saw how kana affected the war and thelist goes on…

    but the point of your message is: YOU ARE A BIG IMMORAL HYPOCHRITE AND HAVE THE CHUTZPAH TO ATTACK THE GROUP THAT ROUGHT THE MOST SECURTY TO ALL OF IRAEL WHEN YOU ARE THE ONE TO BLAME FOR ALL THE DISASTERS…

  4. avrohom

    PAul: you see what the blog’s owner holds about the settlers and the disengagement!

    Shmarya,

    At least you are honest. But you should be ashmaed of yourself. That you are unable to say that “i erred” . You idols and zeal to false piety (in your false perception of the world) cannot allow you to see the oobvious and say:

    the greatest mistake of all that led to this blunder, that was the lfieforce within the blunder was and is: THE IDOLATRY OF RUNNIGN TO THE ENEMY AND TURNING TO HIM THE OTHER CHEEK…THE IDOLATRY THAT THE FALSE “ISMS” OF THE WORLD WILL WORK TO SOLVED THE PROBLEM…THE IDOLATRY THAT DOES NOT ALLOW YOU TO SEE THATYOUR GOYISEHE SECULAR VALUES DO NOT ALLOW YOU TO SEE HOW SETTLING EVEWRY INCH IN ERETS YISROEL IS THE ONLY THING THAT WORKED TO KEEP ISRAEL STRONG…

    While i could see that you make some points in 1, 2, 3, your ommsion of the most point shows your egotistical inability to say (like all others) “i made a mistake”. Your ommission that Oslo led to all of this…is part of the same idolatry.

    Furthermore: you have the gall to make your number 4 point: you hack a tchaynick and do not begin to make any sense. The settlers ‘s refusal to their expulsion cannot begin to be a reason for israel’s military incabality. How in the worlds you make that connection is beyond me. It is because you hate the steradfastnessof people who have a REAL jewish interest and actually PROTECT EVERY CITIZEN IN ERETS YISROEL.

    The facts are just the opposite from what you wrote: The IDF was not ready for any of this war, because you and your friends inculcated in them the false hope that the messiah will arrive with Oslo. Then you brought into them the false hope that the messiah will arive with Camp DAvid!! then the flase messaih will arrive with the disengagement. You have told the people and the demoralized youth and soldiers that the solution is “politically”. Yuo have told them that the solution is to “make concessions”. YOu hav told them that the thousands of deaths over the wars are FOR NAUGHT. You have told that you want to rid yourself from the real connection with the LAnd: The promise by G-d that it belongs to every Jew. You have also brought into their minds the issue of being really impotent to make any dent with regards to theri security: you have borught the suicide nbombers that killed obver thousand over the decade and wounded and maimed thousands moer…you have brought the Intifada !! and the soldeirs saw how their deterrence was from day to day shatttered more and more…you have brought Hamastan to accepted as a legitimate entity… you have brought the idea thAT TERROR PAYS: BY UNILATERALLY GOING OUT FROM LEBANON (REMEMBER THE “fOUR MOTHERS” AND THEIR COMPANY AND YOUR LEFTISTS ISTUPID IDEAS THAT BROUGHT) NASSRALLAH IN OUR BACK YARD and your ideas of blaming the setlers brought the katyuchas to 10,000,0000 OF PEOPLE TO BE DISLOCATED FROM THEIR HOMES! THIS WAS BROUGHT BY ALL THE “PEACENIKS’ AND THE “DISENGAGMEENTS AND THE COVNERGENCE STUPID TALKSand all this began when the “settlers” became the “sair laazael” that they were blamed for having the IDF overresource thesemlves to “protect them”. W saw immediately what kind of baloney these words were: as soon as the expulsion began the KASSAAMS BEGAN SSHOWERING…THE HAMASTAN UNDERSTOOD THAT TERROR PAYS…THAT THEY ACCOPMLISHED EXPELLING 9,000 JEWS FROM THEIR OWN HOMES…AND FOR YOUR INFO: BEFORE ANY TRALKS ABOUT RELINQUISHING THE HOMES AND TERRORTORIES OF THWE JEWS TO THE GOYIM THERE WAS NEVER SUCH INSECURITY AS WE HAVE EXPEIRENCED SINCE ALL YOUR COCKMAMMAIE IDEAS OF “LAND FOR PEACE”.

    i THOGUHT THAT YOU WERE AT LEAST HONEST. yOU ATTACK CERTAIN THINGS BUT YOU ACKNOWLEDGE THAT YOUR POSITIONS ARE AT FAULT ALSO. I see that you are made from the garbage that you project unto others. You have the chutzpah to place the blame on the settlers for all of your faults that you brought this disaster upon all jews ine erets yisroel. Actually when the setllers were there the soliders were more secure….the soldiers did not need to endanger themsevles to fight the enemy under a demoralization that they must pay attention to what the “world” says…now with theat mindset inculcated by your goyishe idols they had to pay attention what the “world” says and we saw how kana affected the war and thelist goes on…

    but the point of your message is: YOU ARE A BIG IMMORAL HYPOCHRITE AND HAVE THE CHUTZPAH TO ATTACK THE GROUP THAT ROUGHT THE MOST SECURTY TO ALL OF IRAEL WHEN YOU ARE THE ONE TO BLAME FOR ALL THE DISASTERS…

  5. Paul Freedman

    Shmarya–I am surprised. An easy answer to “the settlers distracted us with disengagement from Gaza” is, “well, leave them then,” or, “well, learn to walk and chew gum at the same time.” As for social welfare budgets, or for budgetary issues in general, I don’t agree that lack of resources explains the evident failure to use the resources the IDF had. In any event the IDF certainly doesn’t want the yeshiva students in their army. It is still unclear after the air war didn’t bring the expected results who did or did not advocate a ground war or whether the general staff really hadn’t pushed for a ground war initially w/the air campaign.

    If a Likud-Lieberman (pro-settler, pro yeshiva subsidies, responsible for prior budget cuts, against Gaza withdrawal) government had run this war I don’t think it would have gone the same way.

  6. Michelle

    B”H

    The reason for the sad state of affairs with the Hezbollah offensive is simply that Israel was not fighting to win, they were fighting to get a better deal in the UN negotiations.

    One cannot be simultaniously listening to the propoganda of our enemies and their sympathizers and trying to win a war. Sure, we looked “sensitive to the needs of innocent civilians” to the news media, but we sacrificed our own people because of that.

    It doesn’t matter how good you look when you are fighting a war, it only matters who wins–as Israel is realizing now.

    We needed to airlift soldiers to the Litani River right away and squeeze Hezbollah between the river and Israel in order to demolish them. Instead, like a tube of toothpaste, we squeezed from the bottom and they all escaped to the top to fight another day.

    M

  7. aviel

    I agree with many things u say and I’m certainly no friend of the haredi lifestyle. but what do you think of this article from the JPost about the haredim and the israeli state budget: http://www.jewishmediaresources.com/article/564/ ???

  8. avrohom

    dear paul,

    as i told you: you see that this blog owner has his prejudices against anything that smacks ofa strong beleifin Hashem and TOrah to the extent that it blinds to say such ridiculous and illogical statements that they were a hindrance to the war. such stupidity can only stem from an extreme bviase person.

    in the meantime all the people who put their trust in all fallacies of secularisms and that if we would only be more polite to the goyim they would put a red carpet etc. they and theiridolatrous ideolgies were responsible for the loss of detrerrence, loss of lives, loss of security and everything that it entails.

    btw: day number two in the “Cease fire”: hezbollah declares: won’t be disarmed…NOW: WON’T MOVE NORTH OFLITANI RIVER…. and this is what olmert and all people who love “concessions” gave us with this ceasefire and the lack of a strong military operation….

  9. avrohom

    dear paul,

    as i told you: you see that this blog owner has his prejudices against anything that smacks ofa strong beleifin Hashem and TOrah to the extent that it blinds to say such ridiculous and illogical statements that they were a hindrance to the war. such stupidity can only stem from an extreme bviase person.

    in the meantime all the people who put their trust in all fallacies of secularisms and that if we would only be more polite to the goyim they would put a red carpet etc. they and theiridolatrous ideolgies were responsible for the loss of detrerrence, loss of lives, loss of security and everything that it entails.

    btw: day number two in the “Cease fire”: hezbollah declares: won’t be disarmed…NOW: WON’T MOVE NORTH OFLITANI RIVER…. and this is what olmert and all people who love “concessions” gave us with this ceasefire and the lack of a strong military operation….

  10. avrohom

    dear paul,

    as i told you: you see that this blog owner has his prejudices against anything that smacks ofa strong beleifin Hashem and TOrah to the extent that it blinds to say such ridiculous and illogical statements that they were a hindrance to the war. such stupidity can only stem from an extreme bviase person.

    in the meantime all the people who put their trust in all fallacies of secularisms and that if we would only be more polite to the goyim they would put a red carpet etc. they and theiridolatrous ideolgies were responsible for the loss of detrerrence, loss of lives, loss of security and everything that it entails.

    btw: day number two in the “Cease fire”: hezbollah declares: won’t be disarmed…NOW: WON’T MOVE NORTH OFLITANI RIVER…. and this is what olmert and all people who love “concessions” gave us with this ceasefire and the lack of a strong military operation….

  11. avrohom

    dear paul,

    as i told you: you see that this blog owner has his prejudices against anything that smacks ofa strong beleifin Hashem and TOrah to the extent that it blinds to say such ridiculous and illogical statements that they were a hindrance to the war. such stupidity can only stem from an extreme bviase person.

    in the meantime all the people who put their trust in all fallacies of secularisms and that if we would only be more polite to the goyim they would put a red carpet etc. they and theiridolatrous ideolgies were responsible for the loss of detrerrence, loss of lives, loss of security and everything that it entails.

    btw: day number two in the “Cease fire”: hezbollah declares: won’t be disarmed…NOW: WON’T MOVE NORTH OFLITANI RIVER…. and this is what olmert and all people who love “concessions” gave us with this ceasefire and the lack of a strong military operation….

  12. avrohom

    dear paul,

    as i told you: you see that this blog owner has his prejudices against anything that smacks ofa strong beleifin Hashem and TOrah to the extent that it blinds to say such ridiculous and illogical statements that they were a hindrance to the war. such stupidity can only stem from an extreme bviase person.

    in the meantime all the people who put their trust in all fallacies of secularisms and that if we would only be more polite to the goyim they would put a red carpet etc. they and theiridolatrous ideolgies were responsible for the loss of detrerrence, loss of lives, loss of security and everything that it entails.

    btw: day number two in the “Cease fire”: hezbollah declares: won’t be disarmed…NOW: WON’T MOVE NORTH OFLITANI RIVER…. and this is what olmert and all people who love “concessions” gave us with this ceasefire and the lack of a strong military operation….

  13. avrohom

    dear paul,

    as i told you: you see that this blog owner has his prejudices against anything that smacks ofa strong beleifin Hashem and TOrah to the extent that it blinds to say such ridiculous and illogical statements that they were a hindrance to the war. such stupidity can only stem from an extreme bviase person.

    in the meantime all the people who put their trust in all fallacies of secularisms and that if we would only be more polite to the goyim they would put a red carpet etc. they and theiridolatrous ideolgies were responsible for the loss of detrerrence, loss of lives, loss of security and everything that it entails.

    btw: day number two in the “Cease fire”: hezbollah declares: won’t be disarmed…NOW: WON’T MOVE NORTH OFLITANI RIVER…. and this is what olmert and all people who love “concessions” gave us with this ceasefire and the lack of a strong military operation….

  14. avrohom

    dear paul,

    as i told you: you see that this blog owner has his prejudices against anything that smacks ofa strong beleifin Hashem and TOrah to the extent that it blinds to say such ridiculous and illogical statements that they were a hindrance to the war. such stupidity can only stem from an extreme bviase person.

    in the meantime all the people who put their trust in all fallacies of secularisms and that if we would only be more polite to the goyim they would put a red carpet etc. they and theiridolatrous ideolgies were responsible for the loss of detrerrence, loss of lives, loss of security and everything that it entails.

    btw: day number two in the “Cease fire”: hezbollah declares: won’t be disarmed…NOW: WON’T MOVE NORTH OFLITANI RIVER…. and this is what olmert and all people who love “concessions” gave us with this ceasefire and the lack of a strong military operation….

  15. aviel

    avrohom: your multiple posts are rather annoying. stop it please.

  16. avrohom

    Dear paul,

    Better yet: the real reason shmarya says somethinng so ridiculous, so stupid about the settlers: is because he needs topersist with his ideology, otherwise the Lubavitcher Rebbe was right and he cannot afford to have this be true and acknowledge that the idol shmarya failed. Ergo such stupidity.

  17. avrohom

    aviel,

    i’m sorry for the inconveience. It’s problem with my computer ensuring that the message went through. Sorry. I will try to avoid the annoyance.

  18. Paul –

    “If a Likud-Lieberman (pro-settler, pro yeshiva subsidies, responsible for prior budget cuts, against Gaza withdrawal) government had run this war I don’t think it would have gone the same way.”

    Agreed. But the problems in the IDF would still be present.

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    Avrohom –

    Please hit the Post button once and wait until the comment posts. If you refersh your browser or hit the button multiple times, you’ll get multiple posts. TypePad is – slowly – working on the problem. Maybe they’ll fix it before Yom Tov.

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    Aviel –

    ” I agree with many things u say and I’m certainly no friend of the haredi lifestyle. but what do you think of this article from the JPost about the haredim and the israeli state budget: http://www.jewishmediaresources.com/article/564/ ???”

    Rosenblum is playing fast and loose with the statistics. For example, kibbutzim cost more because of their isolation, much the way a village school costs more per student than a city school because the population of students is small and the costs add up to more per pupil.

    Haredim in Israel INTENTIONALLY suck millions of dollars out of the welfare system. Many refuse to work. Others have such poor eduacations that they cannot find work.

    Also, haredi schools that do not teach secular sujects do not get money to teach those subjects, so haredi schools will always get less than public schools.

    Rosenblum is simply dishonest.

  19. aviel

    shmarya:
    point well taken.

  20. avrohom

    shmarya,

    all of this has got nothing to do with this war: it happened because the world did not listen for the past decdes to the advice of the Rebbe not to make any concessions. The mroe concessions made the more terror…the more WAR… all those who voted for disengagement and besmirched the settlers MUST do teshuva…their intransigence to persist with their earlier silly views is an even greater crime as it smacks of worshipping one’s own idol…

    the war happened because we gave land and removed the settlers…we lost the war for the same reason. This is the only relevant thing for this discussion. Some of the points may have relevance for other discssions.

  21. Paul Freedman

    shmarya–well, you understand that I don’t think agree the problems of the IDF were directly linked to the issues of settlers and harediim–these causes are neither necessary nor sufficient to explain the botch and kibbutzim have gotten some amazing subsidies and (I think) debt forgiveness for profligate investments in boom times that went bust. It wasn’t the harediim that went directly from government meetings of kidnapped soldiers to cash out 120,000 Israeli pounds of investments–it was the most un-frum Chief of Staff.

  22. NoDemonstrations

    The answer is very simple:

    Oslo began the process of delusion and demoralization which then resulted in this latest defeat. Israel no longer has the fighting pioneer mentality that it still needs to survive. And if anything, the Yehuda, Shomron and Gaza settlers were once the best fighters, but they have been alienated by what was done at Gush Katif and no longer feel that they are part of the State.

    So, the problem is – the left. Plain and simple.

  23. NoDemonstrations

    Oh, and please share your comments regarding haredim with Dudi Zilbershlag, who was one of the few heroes of this mess. The others included many Chabad chassidim, especially those affiliated with Chabad Houses in the north.

  24. Ma Rabbi

    I strongly object to your 4th point about the Settlers. You are blaming the victims rather than the assailants. It was the Sharon- Olmert Govt that diverted the armys resources from their real mission of defending the people of Israel. Furthermore Sharon fired the highly competent Gen. Moshe Yalon and replaced him with the incompetent Halutz because Yalon knew that the withdrawal from Gaza would be bad for Israel.The best thing that could happen to Israel would be the impeachment of Olmert Peretz and Halutz.

  25. Paul Freedman

    Ma Rabbi: can you give more details on Yalon’s firing. Watching this group is like watching children play “dress-up”–instead of mommie and daddie they play Prime Minister, Foreign Minister, etc. Surreal.

  26. avrohom

    dear paul,

    i believe that Halutz (while not technically “fired”) did not have his position extended for another year (as it was commonly done) it is believed because he made strong comments against the disengagment, that sharon made this for personal reasons and that he saw no benefit from it.

    See for instance here: http://www.israpundit.com/2006/?p=1693

    ( incidentally: Ayalon served in lebanon in 78 and 82 )

  27. Paul Freedman

    avrohom: OK, thanks.

    btw more $ not stolen from the state by herediim:

    [haaretz]

    PM to be summoned to answer questions on apartment purchase

    By Ari Shavit and Jonathan Lis

    Prime Minister Ehud Olmert and his wife, Aliza, will soon be summoned for questioning by the State Comptroller’s Office on suspicion of receiving benefits worth some half a million dollars.

    State Comptroller Micha Lindenstrauss is looking into suspicions that the Olmerts were given an exorbitant discount on the purchase price of a garden apartment on Jerusalem’s Cremieux Street. According to these suspicions, Olmert’s associates worked to help the contracting company that renovated the house to obtain unusual permits from the Jerusalem municipality. These permits significantly increased the profitability of the project.

  28. Yoni

    The settlers?! The settlers?! Are you outta your freakin’ mind?! I live in Israel, I served in Golani and have been a miluim unit for the past 15 years (we were called up for Gaza this time, luckily not to the north). And no, I’m not a settler – though I have many friends who are – I live in Tel-Aviv. Now get this – the only sector holding up the army these days is, yup – the settlers. A HUGE proportion of the younger officers and soldiers are from religious settlements. Not even the extreme left wing assert such a ridiculous claim, that because the settlers didn’t go lightly, the army wasn’t prepared for Lebanon. The army will be the first to dispel any such BS. I know a bit more about morale in Israel than you do – and can tell you that (a) the settlers did not put up 1% of the resistance they could have; (b) the people involved in the evacutation were not combat soldiers, but rather what we call “jobnikim”; (c) the army was very interested in having a perception that “Jews don’t abandon their homes easily”; this was clearly conveyed here in Israel, as such abandonment would have been taken by the Palestinians and the Arab world in general as defeatism. You don’t seem to be aware, but the unilateral pullback from Gaza is now deemed by mainstream Israelis as having been a grave mistake. There will be no more unilateral pullbacks in the West Bank. My leftist friends here in Tel-Aviv will be the first ones protesting any such plan – for some reason, they don’t feel like getting rockets lobbed at them.
    Lebanon was a failure for a bunch of reasons, none of them having to do with the settlers, who were disproportionately represented in the fighting forces and in the falled soldiers. Get your head outta your a**, man, your analysis is the dumbest I’ve yet read.

  29. Paul Freedman

    Yoni, what do you think are the chances for the platform of “no more unilateral pullbacks” to be refined to a general consensus of “no more pullbacks” period. Do you believe that the Israeli public is ready to unite around the concept that territorial concessions, making them, searching for them, talking about them to this or that Arab interlocutor just doesn’t work in practice. Is Israel moving beyond “no to convergence” to “yes to we won’t budge and we won’t freeze our settlements”

  30. Paul Freedman

    Yoni, what do you think are the chances for the platform of “no more unilateral pullbacks” to be refined to a general consensus of “no more pullbacks” period. Do you believe that the Israeli public is ready to unite around the concept that territorial concessions, making them, searching for them, talking about them to this or that Arab interlocutor just doesn’t work in practice. Is Israel moving beyond “no to convergence” to “yes to we won’t budge and we won’t freeze our settlements”

  31. Paul Freedman

    Shmarya–people are not intentionally sending multiple posts for emphasis–the thing hangs up and its hard to cancel out to resend

  32. avrohom

    dear paul,

    See this link how the enemies perceive the last war and the lessons they take from all “oconcessions” and that war and terror bears the fruitsof concessions. So you are so right:

    WE need to emphasize from now on to them and to ourselves: NO MORE CONCESSIONS…NO MORE STUPID “LAND FOR PEACE”; ONLY “PEACE FOR PEACE” AND TEN EYES FOR ONE WAY! NO MORE MORE PULLBACKS PERIOD!

    http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3292723,00.html

  33. avrohom

    PAUL,

    INCIDENTALLY I WOULD LIKE TO SHARE THIS WITH THE AUDIENCE FOR THEM TO KNOW WHO WE ARE DEALING WITH:

    http://vosizneias.blogspot.com/2006/08/west-bank-palestinian-collaborator.html

  34. Paul Freedman

    avrohom: I wonder if there could be grounds of negotiation once territory is taken out of the picture–looks like Olmert & Co. will be around for some time regardless …

  35. Paul Freedman

    y-net article very good. what is interesting is that a population can support an armed enmity without supporting a productive economy–many of these Al Asqa guys aren’t “working” any more than the yeshiva students and families people get so worked up about, and the Palestinian economy is bust, but they have resources (they’re not working–they have all the time in the world) to try out this strategy and that strategy.

  36. avrohom

    Dear Paul,

    I believe that actually Israel should go on the offensive: whenever there is so,e offensive they annex more land. I believe that is the proper way to stop them and this is the only way there be any “negotiation”.

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