Rabbi Shmuely Boteach writes:
Last week I delivered a sermon based on the Torah portion of the week and which compared Moses, the great Jewish redeemer, with Abraham Lincoln, the martyred American emancipator. When I finished, I was approached by an acquaintance who happens to be an Orthodox Jewish engineer. He seemed, up until that time, to be devout, educated, and sophisticated. But what he told me was sacrilegious, ignorant, and primitive.
This gentleman maintained that Lincoln was no hero, seeing as he had freed a people who were the descendants of Ham, the son of Noah, who was cursed for humiliating his father. “Ham’s children are black, and are condemned by God to eternal slavery,” he said. “There was even a rebbe in Poland who predicted that Abraham Lincoln would be shot for liberating a people against God’s wishes.”
I looked this man in the eye and said to him, “I’m confused. Judaism believes that every man is judged according to his actions. Now you are telling me that every black person in the world is cursed for something an ancestor did millennia ago. We Jews don’t believe in Original Sin, and we don’t believe in vertical accountability. So how can you tell me something so abominably racist like the fact that blacks are cursed?”
He responded that I was denying scripture. I told him that his views were repugnant to everything Judaism stood for in terms of the equality of all mankind.…
I remember my shock at seeing a book written by Rabbi Ahron Soleveitchik that strongly stated that racism of any kind has no place in Judaism. Why was I shocked? Because every Chabad and haredi rabbi I then knew was profoundly racist.
I was once driving with a head shaliach (the senior rabbi sent by the Chabad Rebbe to a particular area). We passed a bus stop at which a black man was kissing a white woman. The rabbi reacted with disgust. "It’s unnatural!" he screamed. "What is?" I asked. "Schvartes and whites shouldn’t mix. Races shouldn’t mix," he answered. I asked him if that was true even if the "schvartze" had converted. He fumbled for an answer, finally settling on "that depends on the situation." He hastened to add that the black convert would be a full Jew, and really should be able to marry any Jew, regardless of color. "So," I asked him, "would you let your son marry a black convert or the daughter of black converts?" "No!," he said. "Why not?" I asked. "It just wouldn’t be right," he said.
I used to write off this insanity as the side effects of living in or frequenting Crown Heights, with its years of racial tension. But the truth cuts much deeper. Orthodoxy in general and haredim specifically demonize the Other. Nothing is more "Other" than a black man.
I remember another haredi rabbi teaching that tselem elokim, the idea that man is made in God’s image, only applies to Jews. And we have the assertion in the Tanya, the so-called bible of Chabad hasidut, that every kindness a non-Jew does for Jews is only done for selfish reasons; non-Jews are not capable of altruism.
Boteach is right. Racism, as Rabbi Ahron Soleveitchik said, has no place in Judaism. It’s just too bad so many haredim don’t realize this, and that they have not realized it for so long.
FailedMessiah.com 
Sounds like the guy you were driving with was a real putz. Just because they are a shliach doesnt mean they represent every single member of Chabad, you outa know that and be honest with yourself.
Just like every black male in crown heights who curses at me that hitler should have finished the job doesnt mean every single black male in crown heights is a horrible person.
Even if it was a head shliach so what, I bet you more of the young guys today are more respectful.
Shmarya, if you read the series “Lessons in Tanya” there is a note at the end of chapter one that reads, “It should be noted that among the nations of the world there are also to be found those whose souls are derived from kelipat nogah. Called “the pious ones of the nations of the world,” these righteous individuals are benevolent not out of selfish motives but out of a genuine concern for their fellow.” I would say there are plenty of examples of non Jews doing selfness, true acts of kindness: everytime someone jumped on a grenade in war, or risked their life to save another, or did a good deed when no one was looking etc.
I’d also like to point out that Rabbi Akiva was very clear when he said in pirke avos ch.3
“beloved is man for he was created in the image of G-d. It is a greater love that it was made known to him that he was created in the image of G-d, as it is said, ‘For in the image of G-d did He make man’ (Genesis 9:6).” Rabbi Akiva is very precise with his language. He doesn’t say “beloved are the Jews” but rather “beloved is man.” There may be other interpretations and metaphorical extrapolations on the verse “in G-d’s image He created man” but Rabbi AKiva’s is the literal meaning of the verse and the most accepted. Therefore it is the true explanation of it. Furthermore, Adam wasn’t a Jew and you can’t argue that he wasn’t created in the image of G-d. This verse was specifically about him.
In all fairness, I have met Chabadniks who were not racist, and had no problem with black Jews, or non-Jews. I have met both racist and non-racist MO’s and chareidim.
There are things in the tanya (and tanach, the Quran, etc.) that are profoundly disturbing. And there are many things that are uplifting. It is up to interpretation. Interpretation (which we excell at as Jews) is an example of religious humanism- a divine-human partnership. The problem is when the interpretators become seen as infallible. We should be far more critical of the tanya, and other works of interpretation (including the talmud itself) than we have been. Human beings bring their prejudices to bear on what they read.
We have countless examples in parshanut (commentary), of different mfarshim (commentators) living in different time periods using the EXACT SAME PASUK to say completely different things. While there are those who use this argument to undermine biblical exegesis and traditional Judaism, I believe this fact allows us Jews to truly “live” by the Torah. It is a living Torah, meaning that in each generation, we interpret and reinterpret our Torah in a way that speaks to us as modern Jews.
Today, racisim has absolutely no place, especially considering that our people has suffered more than any other people. We need to be MORE sensitive to issues of racisim than other people/religions because of our historical experience as a people. When statements are made such as “Chabad is racisit”, ironically, this is also a kind of prejudice. Each person must be judged on their own merit, and if there are problems with racisim in certain circles of Chabad or other movements, they should be addressed head on, but not by making generalizations that “Chabad is racist”.
Shalom writes:
Shmarya, if you read the series “Lessons in Tanya” there is a note at the end of chapter one that reads, “It should be noted that among the nations of the world there are also to be found those whose souls are derived from kelipat nogah. Called “the pious ones of the nations of the world,” these righteous individuals are benevolent not out of selfish motives but out of a genuine concern for their fellow.”
Now why is it this amazing discovery of altruistic non-Jews took place ONLY AFTER CHABAD TOOK TREMENDOUS FLACK FROM BTs AND DONORS?
The “series” you quote dates from the 1990s. You have 200 years of silence before that.
Also, what the note means is that there are very rare, exceptional non-Jews who are altuistic. This is opposed to Jews who are always presumed to be altruistic.
what about amalek?
No Shmarya. If you notice, the quote above from Tanyz, “It should be noted that among the nations of the world etc.” has a footnote in “Lessons in Tanya” that references “See Siddur Im D’ach, Shaar Chag HaMatzot; Lekutei Biurim (By Rabbi Hillel Malisov of Paritch), 47b.” Rabbi Hillel met the Alter Rebbe (author of tanya) and traveled regularly to learn from Rabbi Dovbear and the Tzemach tzeddik. His work, written not too long after the tanya, is the source for the idea of non Jews with klipa noga. So theres no 200 year silence that you speak of.
Furthermore, I feel that many non Jews in the US have shown their altruism through their actions. I would imagine in other areas of the world, kindness in general, and particularly altruism, is not so prevalent (especially in areas where they could care less at the death of Jews or westerners). And regardless, even those who dont have klipa noga, can become very good, righteous people who have a portion in the world to come.
Also, Jews are not always presumed to be altruistic. They merely have the potential to be. Have you heard the idea that you should learn torah shelo lishmah so that you will come to learn it lishmah. This statement already assumes that most who learn torah dont do it completely for its own sake without thought of reward. This same concept applies to all other mitzvot. It takes a lot to truly reach that level. In fact the Alter rebbe goes so far as to say that those who do not learn lishmah in this life will eventually learn lishmah in a future gilgul.
You’re telling me about Hillel Paritcher? Please. Find ONE REFERENCE FROM A LUBAVITCH REBBE. Can’t do that, can you?
Hillel Paritcher was a rebbe in his own right. He was also a posek. If you look in the Shu”t Tzemach Tzedek, you’ll occasionally see sha’alot sent to him.
But, again, please show me where ANY LUBAVITCHER REBBE says that non-Jews can be alturistic.
Again, you cannot do that because NO SOURCE EXISTS.
I think that in general, rebbes spoke about topics relevant to their chassidim. I don’t think these rebbes needed to emphasize to their oppressed followers in czarist and communist russia that there were altruistic non Jews. The topic wasn’t relevant at the time. They were trying to give their followers the strength to survive as Jews. It would be like trying to tell Jews in a concentration camp in Nazi Germany “don’t forget though, there are some good Germans too.” Under the conditions it is pointless to emphasize this. Regardless, by the fact that Rabbi Hillel made reference to it, we see that this was a known, undisputed concept among Lubavitchers. And the fact that it was printed in Lessons in Tanya showed that this point was considered very relevant to those living in the US today.
Really? The why did Hillel Paritcher do so? Please. Enough apologetics, already.
And, by the way, your Holocaust analogy is disgusting – – especially because the Alter Rebbe spied for the Tzar and actively worked to defeat Napoleon.
If you can attack judaism, the least you can do is not cry “apologetics” whenever someone tries to defend it.
You are “defending” Chabad, not Judaism. Process.
The Czar was the less of two evils. And maybe Chabad isn’t Judaism to you, but it is to many.
sholom, EVEN if it is true. (Which as shmarya pointed out it’s not.. it was simply added on later… OH and isn’t there a story with the Alter Rebbe who when he was being questioned, they asked him about about that part of tanya??? And that he only smiled “as if to say, you know, good and well it’s true”) so your saying for the most non-jews are literally incapable of doing any good, for it’s on sake? The exact quote, is actually much worse, when you take the full thing in context, it actually says that ALL non-jewish souls are “completelty EVIL, and “have no good to them whatsoever”… those are the exact words… anything less, is of course apologetics.
Yochanan,
If you REALLY believe that chabad is pagan, and has no place in judaism, then why do associate with chabad. EVERY CHABADNIK is racist, if he’s not, then he ceases to a chabadnik.
Moshe,
do want links, I’ll give it to you:
http://www.sichosinenglish.org/books/letters-rebbe-1/53.htm
Here you can see how the view was still UPHELD by the last lubavitcher rebbe.
Thanks Yochanan, 9in regards to your OTHER post)
Moshe, yes it is true that Shahak lied. But doesn’t the talmud say “that even the greatest lie has to have SOME TRUTH to it, otherwise it would cease to exist.”
In his case, what he said chabad and kabbala and rav kook, was one hundred percent ON THE MONEY.
and moshe, what about my story, did you ever hear that one. If you wany I can scan the page and upload it for you.
again, that quote is taken directly from tanya. not paritcher, or whatever his name was.
It’s only because, thanks to to Time, Schindler, and others… jews, and chassidim have become somewaht senstized enoyugh to even OFFER apolegetics. As you can the veiw, wasn’t so consisinmt throughout lubavitch history.
Esspecialy since, most of it’s leaders owe their LIFE to non-jews.
Shmarya, if you read the series “Lessons in Tanya” there is a note at the end of chapter one that reads, “It should be noted that among the nations of the world there are also to be found those whose souls are derived from kelipat nogah. Called “the pious ones of the nations of the world,” these righteous individuals are benevolent not out of selfish motives but out of a genuine concern for their fellow.”
Silly, silly. Chassidei umos haolam only applies to bnei noach, who have taken upon themselves to fulfill the 7 laws ( and all the offshoots) solely because Hashem said so. This is per the rambam- meaning that technically, very few people would qualify nowadays. In addition, you are missing the point -even those nonJews who attain this high level are from “klippas noga” while each and every Jew’s nefesh elokis is from kedusha.
More about this here : http://onionsoupmix.livejournal.com/63860.html
The passage quoted from the Tanya regarding non-jews did not originate from the Ba’al HaTanya. He is simply quoting a Eitz Chaim And A gemara.
and Shmarya, I think you should give moshe SOME CREDIT, at least he’s sincere enough, and sensitized enough to at least try to explain.
In conclusion, there IS a lot of LIES circling the internet about judaism, these are distortion, and quotes taken out of context. As Gil Student so eloquently points out.
But it be for their own good. If judaism as a whole condemns this kind of “mysticism.”
Let them not have an arguement!… thanks.
Sam, can you give me the source?
“so your saying for the most non-jews are literally incapable of doing any good, for it’s on sake? The exact quote, is actually much worse, when you take the full thing in context, it actually says that ALL non-jewish souls are “completelty EVIL, and “have no good to them whatsoever”… those are the exact words… anything less, is of course apologetics.”
This is TRUE!
Racist ideas formed by racist persons.
Have you ever heard this kind of thinking before ? Aryan? Nazis?, etc…, racism at its finest.
These types of ideas are dispicible, and there apologist disgraceful.
The brainwashing of the sheeple (chabadniks) is nearly complete.
It seems that these are all repressed feeling that are now coming to the fore, which are in fact deep rooted in our past, being continually reiterated during the course of time by the contemporary leaders?
I have always heard fellow jews refer to goys and schvartzes in a derogatory manner, much more so than they towards jews.
Onion soup, I believe the rosh rules contrary to the rambam that shituf is permitted by non jews, though forbidden to Jews. Therefore Christians could be considered bnei noach. If you take this to a further extreme, there are versions of Hinduism which believe in the one G-d Brahman, and that is all they pray to (like paramahansa yogananda). So if you were take this into consideration, and also the idea that formal acceptance of bnei noach couldn’t occur except under special cirucumstances (I believe you have to be in the land of Israel) there are a number of potential bnei noach in the world.
Altruism and Religion
“Most, if not all, of the world’s religions promote altruism as a very important moral value. Christianity and Buddhism place particular emphasis on altruistic morality,
Judaism, Islam, Hinduism and many other religions also promote altruistic behavior.”
I have to poiint out that even those that have the label “completely evil with no good whatsoever” can still become very righteous moral people with a portion in the world to come according to tanya and halacha.
Shahak is a liar and saying that there was truth in what he had to say is like saying there was truth in what hitler had to say. I don’t think shahak was right about rav kook, and please post whatever statements you think are true by Shahhak. He was a liar and an antisemite.
If racism is practice that takes the forms such as prejudice, segregation or subordination.
And, Chabadniks has been documented to state and its followers willfully believe that Non-Jews are inferior and have evil soul;
Then it follows logicaly that Chabadniks are in fact racist, Period!
The passage quoted from the Tanya regarding non-jews did not originate from the Ba’al HaTanya. He is simply quoting a Eitz Chaim And A gemara.
says Sam
It’s true it’s taken from Etz Chaim (of R’ Chaim be Attar) but chabad codified it in the tanya elevating a daas yochid into an essential article of faith as one can see their approach to qeiruv.
They will approach the lowest of the lows of the jews and tell them how lofty they are even when they don’t observe the commandments. That they should always be distinct from the gentiles whose charity is a sin.
Shalom earlier said:
“…”Lessons in Tanya” there is a note at the end of chapter one that reads, “It should be noted that among the nations of the world there are also to be found those whose souls are derived from kelipat nogah. Called “the pious ones of the nations of the world,”
True, the remark that “some” gentile souls are from Nogah is cheap apologetics to fend off antisemites. A true accomplished chabadnik (past the qeiruv stage) does not believe in this “masking” of their iqar article of faith.
From the remark itself, it is evident that the reader is to understand that “some” are an exception to the rule, where gentiles are considered by chabad to be inherently bad as clearly brought out in the Tanya.
When they say:
“these righteous individuals are benevolent not out of selfish motives but out of a genuine concern for their fellow.”
It is to allow themselves to raise funds from the gentiles without blushing.
I found it recently nauseatingly funny, when they raised funds for the chanuka break short winter chabad day camp from then incumbant catholic mayor of our town, with a probable promise of support.
One can safely bet they told him nothing about nitel or about avi avot hatum-oh represented by his pope.
Further proof is the fact that this remark chabadniks seem to be stressing is totally absent in the fully annotated bilingual edition of the Tanya used by insiders.
Not one word on the Good Gentile.
Reb Shalom, I hate to disappoint you about Rabbi Aqiva you will find when asking real chabadniks, that “beloved is man” means “beloved is the jew”.
שכן כל בר בי רב יודע that others are never described as Adam (man).
אתם נקראים אדם אין הם נקראים אדם
Anything else is mascarading that is divulged to visitors, not insiders.
Reb Yochanan some of them who come across as not racists, are either a very good act, or bad according to the faith they are affiliated with.
In my opinion, this entire machloket boils down to the question of how to interpret “Kedoshim tihiyu” (You shall be holy). The question is, is it a COMMAND to be holy, or a statement, YOU WILL BE HOLY. I believe it’s a COMMAND, and therefore, there’s nothing inherently holy about Jews just because we’re Jews. I believe that the Rambam, Yeshiyahu Leibowitz, Meshech Chochma (Meir Simcha Ha’kohane), perhaps Rabbi Soloveitchik, and many others would agree that Kedoshim tihiyu is a COMMAND and NOT a statement. Yehuda Ha’levi, the Baal Shem Tov, Rav Kook, and many more would argue that it’s a statement, meaning, no matter what a Jew does, we are always kedoshim. The danger of this position is that the next logical step could be to say “we’re holy and therefore better than non-Jews”, and from there, it’s a slippery slope that COULD lead one to racisim and prejudice. For a large part of Jewish history, our people has suffered vicious oppression at the hand of Christians or Muslims, so I completely understand how interpreting kedoshim tihiyu as a statement rather than a command would help strengthen sentiment in times of great difficulty. However, I believe that if you put suffering and mysticism aside, it’s pretty clear that Kedoshim Tihiyu should be interpreted as a command and not a statement.
It is time for the chabadniks belief system to become exposed for what it is, racism of the highest and most disgraceful form.
Racism, and all these other words are heavily charged and carry very bad connotations. To call chabadniks racist is foolish. Yes, Jews feel they have greater responsibilities, and according to some kabbalistic sources Jews have certain strengths and connections to G-d which are exclusive to the Jewish people. But I think the most important thing to look at is how the Jewish people treat each other, and the kindness they show to all peoples, regardless of their religion. Racism and elitism are only threatening and dangerous when they leads to murder and control of others, like the Nazis did. In Jewish thought, our gifts are to be used only to help others, not hurt them. It is completely different than the power trip other people get when claiming to be the superior race, who have a right to dominate and rule others. Torah is about using our power and strengths only for the good of all mankind. That is all that really, truly matters in this debate.
Reb Shalom,
yes true, very bad connotations should be there where due.
the racist should be exposed as such and cannot keep dancing like the hypocrites that they really are.
it is not foolish to call chabadniks racists. it may be inconvenient for them to live with the truth that they willfully flount and are very well aware off.
the qabbalistic sources you may be refering to, are poor quality peptalkers. intellectually dihonest trash purveyors.
funny how you said most important thing is how jews treat each other, then you corrected yourself, and everybody else.
I know the lines oh you should be very carefull with your fellow jews. When the others drown however, let them sink. Klippos. no?
Sitro achoro.
As to uberman not killing anybody else, not true we are starting to ignore other peoples suffering.
I didn’t correct myself, i was emphasizing both Jews and non Jews. And just because some jewish people don’t live according to the torah all the time, and don’t treat other people (both Jews and non Jews) with respect, doesn’t mean that the actual halacha and its ethical teachings are in any way at fault. We are not debating those who misapply the torah’s teachings, we are debating the teachings themselves.
And for all those who talk so badly about chabad, I recommend watching the following video.
http://www.chabad.org/multimedia/archives.asp?AID=42106&StartList=61
scroll down to program 62 and click on the ” Maimonides – A Light Unto the Nations” link.
Ben Qor’ho, I couldn’t of said it better myself.
The facts are Lubavitch, by it’s very nature racist.
If tomorrow, they were to find out then one of their congregants is really not jewish, they would say “f-ck him!”
and their so called “love” for the man would cease to exist. It’s extremly conditional. They love people not because of the what they’ve done, believe or whatever. But simply because there jewish.
It’s interesting, that in the beginning chabad was supposed to be reclusive cult. It was only when the last lubavitch rebbe, decided to “spread” his teachings, they were left with a conundrum, and it was only THEN that the less exclusivist aspect of the doctrine reasserted itself. If they were going to “universal appeal,” they can’t say that all non-jews, are the scum of the earth.
However, just like Ben Qor’ha point out, every chabadnik, and every student of jewish mysticism, believes that, in his heart.
Sholom, PLEASE your not giving the quote justice, it does not say, that jews by their effort and by their CHOOSING to, have a special connection to God. Not so. what it says is, that jews, simply by the fact that they ARE jews ARE inherently good. where as Non-Jews are INHERENTLY EVIL! I mean come on… it’s SPELLED OUT! anything less, is a modern, watered down, diluted version of chabad.
eric, and Ben Qur’ho, I also find it funny that chabad has such “universal appeal”, for example “matisyahu” “the chabad telethon” “chabd being mentioned on the simpssons.” All these people take advantage of the ignorants of the people. But don’t worry, thanks to people like Shmarya, the walls of this cult will soon come down. I swear.
What I’m curious about now is, those other sources sam was talking about. I sure hope this is not part of the mesora.
As for Israel Shahak, whether he did intentionally or not, he DID lie. But just like that talmudic quote goes: “even the greatest lie has to have some truth to it, otherwise it would cease to exist.” The worst kind of propaganda, has to have some truth to it, no matter how small, otherwise it would cease to exist.
Shahak, as it is clear from Gil Student’s writing lied about the talmud, and the halacha, but he DID NOT lie about, those “kabbalistic sources.”
Sholom, did you hear some of the speeches some of those rabbis made at Goldstein funeral? about a thousand non-jews not being as worthy a jewish fingernail… and such… all this, all this, is a consequence of that kabbalistic philosophy.
Ben Qor’ho, I couldn’t of said it better myself.
The facts are Lubavitch, is by it’s very nature racist.
If tomorrow, they were to find out then one of their congregants is really not jewish, they would say “f-ck him!”
and their so called “love” for the man would cease to exist. It’s extremly conditional. They love people not because of the what they’ve done, believe or whatever. But simply because there jewish.
It’s interesting, that in the beginning chabad was supposed to be reclusive cult. It was only when the last lubavitch rebbe, decided to “spread” his teachings, they were left with a conundrum, and it was only THEN that the less exclusivist aspect of the doctrine reasserted itself. If they were going to “universal appeal,” they can’t say that all non-jews, are the scum of the earth.
However, just like Ben Qor’ha point out, every chabadnik, and every student of jewish mysticism, believes that, in his heart.
Sholom, PLEASE your not giving the quote justice, it does not say, that jews by their effort and by their CHOOSING to, have a special connection to God. Not so. what it says is, that jews, simply by the fact that they ARE jews ARE inherently good. where as Non-Jews are INHERENTLY EVIL! I mean come on… it’s SPELLED OUT! anything less, is a modern, watered down, diluted version of chabad.
eric, and Ben Qur’ho, I also find it funny that chabad has such “universal appeal”, for example “matisyahu” “the chabad telethon” chabad being mentioned on the simpsons. All these people take advantage of the ignorants of the people they hate so much. But don’t worry, thanks to people like Shmarya, the walls of this cult will soon come down. I swear.
What I’m curious about now is, those other sources sam was talking about. I sure hope this is not part of the mesora.
As for Israel Shahak, whether he did intentionally or not, he DID lie. But just like that talmudic quote goes: “even the greatest lie has to have some truth to it, otherwise it would cease to exist.” The worst kind of propaganda, has to have some truth to it, no matter how small, otherwise it would cease to exist.
Shahak, as it is clear from Gil Student’s writing lied about the talmud, and the halacha, but he DID NOT lie about, those “kabbalistic sources.”
Sholom, did you hear some of the speeches some of those rabbis made at Goldstein funeral? about a thousand non-jews not being as worthy a jewish fingernail… and such… all this, all this, is a consequence of that kabbalistic philosophy.
it’s funny th rebbe never refers to non-jews as “neet-yiden” (yiddish for non-jews) but allways calls them goyim. Only in THAT video does he call thewm “neet-yeeden” Perhaps their was news reporters there. Moreover, why does he keep stressing “EEEEVEN… non-jews” (“afilu neet-yeeden”) what’s the big EVEN.
why should that suprise anybody?
Anyhow, let just cyut to the chase. Sholom, you might identify yourself as a chabadnik, but you not really a chabadnik.
You belong to the “hangers-on”, the one’s that are somewhat horrified by it’s beleifs, but try to come up with explanations.
Tha fact is, Chabad is the jewish equivelent of the Taliban. Yes, chabad does to tremondeous amounts of charity (for jews only) but so does the tasliban. This kind of defense “but look at all the good chabad does” holds no water. the FACT IS, they created the biggest split among jews. And they are hatefully, and rabidly RACIST.
i just hope that the rest of judaism, is not like this.
Moshe, what about that story about the alter rebbe, the FOUNDER of chabad, you still haven’t replied to that.
What about that link I sent you, (where one can see the TRUE beleifs of the last lubavitcher rebbe), you still haven’t replied to that either.
by the way, disagrees with miamonides regarding a world to come?
“Tha fact is, Chabad is the jewish equivelent of the Taliban. Yes, chabad does to tremondeous amounts of charity (for jews only) but so does the tasliban. This kind of defense “but look at all the good chabad does” holds no water. the FACT IS, they created the biggest split among jews. And they are hatefully, and rabidly RACIST.”
I dont hear chabadniks talking this way. It is only ashkenazim and misnagdim that are so rabidly hateful of Chabad, and thats what creates this split. This hatred of Chabad is based on a lack of knowledge, and anyone who compares Chabad to nazis or taliban is sorely in need of a reality check. If you ever are in need, you always know that your local chabad will help you out no matter what kind of a jew you are and no matter how rich or poor you are.
BTW the rebbe was known for specifially avoiding the word “goyim” and most of the time, if not always referred to non Jews as “neet yiddin.”
I want to make it clear that I’m opposed to the agenda of this blog, which as far as I can tell, is to trash Chabad in any way possible. Based on my experience coming from a secular background, becoming observant through Chabad and not very much part of the Modern Orthodox community, in many ways totally opposed to the Chabad hashkafa in terms of tzadik, kabala, superiority complext, etc… but all in all, I wouldn’t be where I am if it weren’t for Chabad. And when I travel, it’s always Chabad and only Chabad that can counted on for a place to stay when I’m in a pinch (landing somewhere in Europe Friday afternoon a few hours before Shabbat). If I had to say what Chabad philosophy is in the bigger picture, I would have to say it’s to help teach other Jews to be proud of their Jewish heritage and to live live’s as proud Jews. It’s only when you get into the details of how to do that according to Chabad that I would have serious disagreements. Please think about Chabad houses on college campuses, read the book “The Rebbe’s Army”. For the most part, Chabad is teaching the basics of Judaism ie) Shabbat, Kashruth, davening, etc. The details very rarely come up. Although I am much more in line with the philosophy of Bnei Akiba, YU, Modern Orthodox, they aren’t doing it nearly as well as Chabad is. I don’t really care that Chabad may be doing it to take over the world, or spread their hashkafa, etc.. the bottom line is, they’re doing work that desperately needs to be done that no one else is doing as well as they are, so I have to give this aspect of Chabad my support. All in all, I have to say that I love Chabad, but I have serious objections to many aspects of Chabad hashkafa, but I won’t allow this to lessen my love and respect for Chabad.
Very well, i understand you eric, all we disagree on is terminology, chabad people do marvelous things… okay, so what?… so we should say that “Chabad people do marvelous things for people (so long as your jewsh), however chabad does have some very, very, disturbing beliefs about non-jews.
how do you like that.
These are not mere details Eric, this clearly SPELLED OUT.
However it will be a disservice TO EVERYBODY (especially jews) if these beliefs (not the people) are not CALLED OUT!
Sholom, let’s see, what did he call them here:
http://www.sichosinenglish.org/books/letters-rebbe-1/53.htm
Okay so basically Sholom, you disagree with the Tanya right?
How were the beliefs and actions of Baruch Goldstein any different then that of a nazi, or a Muslim extremist?
Can you tell me.
Sholom, I love you man. But GET REAL. Thank you.
Its so strange to read that no matter how racist and immoral chabads platform of beliefs are, you will still love them, silly, to the least.
If you have to thank chabad where you are today, that is a sad, for now you belong in a racist cult – try and get out of this and maintain their respect, these people that ypu believe love you unconditionly will turn against you as you were the plague.
These people practice racism -racism in any form is immoral, stop deluding yourselves with shameful apologies.
Shalom
I saw the video and I must say, that it was a watershed in regards to my opinion of the Rebbe Mame’sh, yet I can’t help thinking that such sicho, must have been a watershed to most of his listeners. Having spent years before and after the Rebbe Mame’sh’s death close to chabad, I would say such talk as presented in the sicha doesnot seem to have seeped thru to reach any chabadnik.
In fact I know for a fact Chabad discourages (indeed prohibits) the reading of the Guide of the Perplexed reffered to by the Mamesh Rebbe in his talk.
What is one to make out of that?
No one can deny that Tanya has very disturbing writings on non-Jews if we take it at face value, 2007 America. However, consider the context in which Tanya was written. Pogrom ridden eastern Europe, thousands of innocent Jews being killed by Kozaks or Christian Jew haters. This resulted in an extremely insular, shtetel kind of society that we cannot begin to understand from our liberal modern American perspective. So I put the question on the table, is it really fair to judge all of Chabad based on a text written under very different social conditions that we cannot really relate to? The question then becomes, to what extent do Chabadniks take Tanya at face value, or are they able to interpret, perhaps by using apologetics, and arrive at a very different conclusion than waht Tanya says at face value? It seems to me that the only reason we’re able to live according to the Torah is because much like the US constitution, we’re able to interpret and reinterpret and flip it on its’ head in order to be able to say “we live our lives according to the Torah, but if you only read the Torah and take everyting at face value, you won’t have a clue how we live today”. This is because you have to be able to flip it on its head in order to make it a “living Torah”. The title of this blog was “Shvartze”, and it actually shows that Shmuel Boteach who is certainly “Chabad” in the sense that he’s a follower of the late Lubavitcher Rebbe and I assume he teaches Tanya, but somehow, he’s able to reach a very different conclusion than other Chabadniks who may take Tanya at face value. So perhaps the problem is not the original text (Tanya) which is revered, but the lack of interpretation on the part of some. Any text, if not taken in its proper historical context, could have the same problem.
1. !790s Belarus was not pogom ridden.
2. Chabad takes the Tanya literally. It is not just as “text;” it is the foundational work of Chabad hasidut.
The main attribute that Judaism is respected for is its idea of the virtues of morality, by what is written here by some seems it has all been just a fraud.
That we are no better than the Nazi’s and Muslim extremist-this will not do, it is not acceptable.
My appreciation here to all those that stand up with integraty and in an intelligent manner to state that they will not willfully accept that this be done in the name of Judaism.
Shmarya, massacres of Jews were common during that period. The Khmelnytsky massacre occurred between 1648-1654. In 1768 the Massacre of Uman occurred in Poland where thousands of jews were killed. The first official Russian pogrom is said to have occurred in 1821 in which a number of Jews were killed while others claim is was a separate riot in 1859 that was the first official pogrom. Bottom line is this kind of thing was happening all over around the time of the Tanya completion and publication.
Eric, I agree with you.
But can you tell me a how do I put positive spin on, “all non-jewish souls are ENTIRELY evil, and contain no good to them whatsoever [sic]”
Not in Bealrus. Not at the time of the Ba’al HaTanya. Chemelnitzki was 150 years before the Tanya. Uman is nowhere near Belarus. 1821 is fter the Ba’al HaTanya died.
You’re simply incorrect.
Eric, I agree with you.
But can you tell me a how do I put positive spin on, “all non-jewish souls are ENTIRELY evil, and contain no good to them whatsoever [sic]”
Boteach might of indeed come to different conclusions (assuming that he’s not lying), but it was only because he deviated from the original source. An analog can be made to the moderate muslim. The people with wacky extremist veiws, do not extremist veiws at all, only they are the one’s that truely adhere to the true text. The so called “moderates” and “modern-muslims”, have litteraly deviated from the original text.
R’ Shalom
says,
“…..Jews were common during that period. The Khmelnytsky massacre occurred between 1648-1654. In 1768 the Massacre of Uman occurred in Poland where thousands of jews were killed. ……in 1821 in which a number of Jews ….in 1859 that was the first official pogrom. Bottom line ….”
There is no bottom line nothing, you are not reading what you are being told. Nay, it seems that you are not even aware of what you are writing.
What bottom line?
What are all these dates proving, when chabadniks express themselves in a racist way in modern days America.
You are told 1790 there were no pogroms and you throw all these dates from preceding and succeeding centuries.
When the R’ Mamesh dismisses the help to Ethiopian Jews as unecessary!
When Shmarya tells you that Chabadniks take the Tanya literally, it’s true!
Their religion is not Judaism, it fetishist Tanya . Their love for every fellow Jew, is fetishist. They have no love. They are commanded to love, they say to themselves we love every fellow jew in a mechanical fetishist way. They do not know what is love.
The emperor is naked, and the whole world is watching.
If you are an honest good man, escape while you can from both this argument and from this gang.
Eric says:
“The title of this blog was “Shvartze”, and it actually shows that Shmuel Boteach who is certainly “Chabad” in the sense that he’s a follower of the late Lubavitcher Rebbe and I assume he teaches Tanya, but somehow, he’s able to reach a very different conclusion than other Chabadniks who may take Tanya at face value.”
If Shmueli Boteach is a Chabadnik, he would then be a lone tzaddik in Sdom.
Fortunately for him, while it is true that he was raised within Chabad, he outgrew them and reached a span of education that far exceeds what they provide. He was rejected already by Chabad during the lifetime of R’ Mame’sh.
And what a lucky thing it is for him.
He is a genuine intelligent and honest speaker not a deceiptful phoney from the dark ages posing as modern.
never the less, I must say, that I have a greatr love for both you and sholom, you certainly mean well. I did grow up amongst lubavitchers, for the greater part of my life, ands refreshing to see, that not everybody is a monster. it’s refreshing to see that people are at least somewhat sensitive enough, and human enough, to at least offer apologetics.
I’ve been having this argument for the last week or so. It’s funny coming here and seeing the same stuff come up. Fine evidence that the issue can’t be reconciled.
Bottom line (to me)? Tanya? What Tanya? Read the Chumash! Forget mysticism, God literally says the best a goy can be is a servant. The Jewish equivalent of a Dhimmi. Worse, maybe.
For whatever crazy reason, I hold on to faith, but there’s no getting away from the unambiguous, demonstratably false, and outright primal morality of the Torah. The self-aggrandizement of the Torah can be found in all traditions.
We’re better than them. We’re different from them. A retarded child could see the flaw in this logic.
That said, I see no precedent for racism against blacks (in particular).
thanks, Ben Q’orha. Indeed Boteach is seen as deviant amongst most poeple with true Lubavitch veiws.
Yos,
I hope to G-d (if He exists) that your not right.
Everything said, I’d like to again reiterate that compared to other religions that condemn you to eternal hell for not believing the tenants of their faith, the Tanya’s description of non Jewish souls can hardly be called racist. If that is racist, then how much more so must you also say that every Christian and Moslem (as well as any other member of a religion that has similar beliefs) is racist because they claim only those who follow there religion are guaranteed a spot in heaven. If we can accept that, why is it so hard to accept that Jews feel they are better because they follow the right religion. Most people in the world think they are better than others because only they have the correct philosophy and only they are living life correctly. Whatever the parameters of such a belief, its not a problem until it has visibly harmful effects on others.
“They have no love. They are commanded to love, they say to themselves we love every fellow jew in a mechanical fetishist way. They do not know what is love.”
Providing every jew with assistance when they truly are in need and alone, rich or poor, is what I would define as true love.
Judaism says just that. Only Bnai Noach (maybe) get a spot in heaven. All the other non-Jews just fadse away. So we’re racist, using your new formula.
Ben Qor’ha (Baldwin)
Great summation! However i believe it would be a shame for the outsiders to become aware of these aspects of judaism, for it will not only cause hatred, but more disturbing it will cause people to loose respect and admiration for it, and for what many believed was the jewish high regard for human and civil rights, also for not being stigmatized with racist behaviour / beliefs, this would be a great set bsck for judaism.
“Providing every jew with assistance when they truly are in need and alone, rich or poor, is what I would define as true love.”
No that is accommodation not true love.
A catholic person (or most any person in fact) can go for assistance in any city in the world where there is a catholic church and be welcomed, this is not love, rather it is accomodation – there is no love for the the
This is love;
A deep, tender, ineffable feeling of affection and solicitude toward a person, such as that arising from kinship, recognition of attractive qualities, or a sense of underlying oneness.
A feeling of intense desire and attraction toward a person with whom one is disposed to make a pair;
I reiterate, the tanya, and some other jewish mystism is of the opinion that:
Jews are superior to non-jews, not because of belief, practice, or ethics. But simply by their very being jewish.
Supposed non-jews who convert to judaism, are really jews.
Non jews on the other are of entirely “diffrent nature”… and are as lowly as the lowest of creatures.
There is no choice. It’s just a pre-determened dispositon.
This, is the exact definition of racism.
Where as rational, judaism, and other religions, give the person a CHOICE to be “just as good as the other person”… the tanya, does no such thing.
Putting Chabad aside, we have practices in main stream Judaism that may be considered to be just as racisit or politically incorrect. We don’t use the processed grapes of non-Jews. If a non-Jew turns on the fire to boil an egg, the pot has to be rekashered (or toiveled in the mikveh). We don’t exactly put these on a banner and wave them around because it doesn’t make much sense. You people who are screaming that Chabad should be exposed for what it is are being unreasonable. First of all, it’s not exactly a secret what the Tanya says, anyone who wants to find these verses can find them in their native language and ask anyone within Chabad how they interpret them. In this way, they can see for themselves what Chabad is, and accept it or not accept it. I obviously don’t accept it, but they have the right to teach whatever they want to teach (it’s a free country!). Secondly, it’s not realistic if you expect Chabad to put these verses from Tanya on a banner and fly them around in everyone’s face. It’s poor marketing, and no one else does this. I think the non politically correct sources in Tanya are treated similarly by Chabadniks who hold the text to be sacred. In the 4 years that I was involved with Chabad in the college days, I never heard these quotes, and I was pretty heavily involved in the campus Chabad house, although I’ll admit that I did not learn Tanya on a regular basis. The fact that these non politically correct texts exist does not bother me so much, just as long as racisim does not penetrate the people who adhere to these texts. From my experience, it’s really a mixed bag. I’ve met racist Chabadniks, but I’ve also met racisit Litvaks and modern Orthodox and Conservative and Reform and Secular Jews. When I confront racisim, I prefer to confront it for what it is rather than spilling out the baby with the bath water. The other issue that I would put on the table is the fact that a high percentage of Chabadniks are Baalay Tshuva, and it seems to me that they come to Chabad often for social reasons (having an identiy that provides a strong sense of community, perhaps a job as a shaliach, etc) and not so much for the ideological reasons behind Chabad ideology. As a matter of fact, many of the people who become Chabad are probably unaware of all of the details of the ideology. I question whether there is a clear, unified, Chabad ideology today, especailly given the division of Mashichist/non-Mashichist camps.
We don’t use the wine and grape juice of non-Jews because of its (former) association with idol worship. We don’t eat cooked food (even cooked kosher food) on non-Jews in order to prevent intermarriage.
In the first case, before the gezera was made, we did use non-Jewish made wine. In the second, we did eat non-Jewish cooked (kosher) food. Neither gezera says anything about a non-Jew’s inherent status or lack of same.
The Tanya posits that non-Jewish souls are different. They are lower, coarser and from evil.
If you cannot see the difference between these cases, I think you are beyond help.
again this sort of “love” is only to find blessedness in the eyes of the last lubavitch rebbe. It is an extreme CONDITIONAL sort of love.
to illustrate:
If a chabad parent were to find out that there was a mix up in the hospital, and his son who he has come to “love” in the past eighteen years is really not jewish… then he would immediately throw him to the dogs.
Simirlarly,
If a “shliach” were to find out that a congregant of his, who has been dying from cancer in the hospital, who has come to “care for”.. he had .. is really a non-jew.. he would say “f-ck-him”
The only reason why I’m agnostic, is because I don’t think Aish would do that.
Shmarya, just the fact you can’t intermarry could be called racist. Regardless, the Tanya does not say that Jews are superior to non jews. It actually is teaching that Jews have a greater potential to become good and a greater potential to become evil. And it also teaches that non jews can become wonderful moral people, regardless of where their soul stems from. Thats all that matters. They can become wonderful moral people, and holy before G-d with a share in the world to come. This is what is important.
And when it comes to love, love is shown through actions, not just “feelings” ” Chabad will get a person a place to stay and a meal at the rabbi’s table, even when they are dreadlocked, broke, drugged out hippies. Thats more than just accomodation. Furthermore, they will do everything they can to help them move forward and get their life together, to achieve their potential. They actually try to help people on a close personal level. Thats true caring for an individual, and not to be brushed off as simply “accomodation.”
“The fact that these non politically correct texts exist does not bother me so much, just as long as racisim does not penetrate the people who adhere to these texts.”
Oh but they have!
Me, I don’t think chabad would reject someone like that. I’ve seen chabadniks especially shluchim be especially kind to those who are just thinking about converting,. So someone who had lived their life as though they were a Jew, even if they weren’t, would most definitely be treated with the same kindness as they had always been treated with.
Shalom –
1. A ban on intermarriage is not racist. A ban on intermarriage because a person’s soul comes from the root of evil, or his skin color is black, etc. is racist.
2. Nice spin on the Tanya. It’s not true, however, as anyone with a real background in hasidut would know.
Shmarya, once again, nicely stated.
Either you can accept that it is racst (when we consider others as sub-human) in nature , and that it is the foundation of chabad theology, or you are deluding youself.
How shameful that there are those that want to defend this belief.
Shmarya, I do see the difference, but the point that I’m making is that you first have to take into account the historical background of the time period when these texts were compiled. If we were living in 18th century eastern Europe, I think that we would hate all non-Jews as well, because living in insular communities, our only interaction with non-Jews would be within an anti-Semitic context. I agree that these texts do not speak to Jews living in modern day America and I find them repulsive. But if you look at how various Middle Aged Halachic codifiers viewed the status of women, you would also find that repulsive. We have to take the historical background into account, but as part of the Mesorah, the previous generations are seen as being closer to Har Sinai and therefore having a higher level of kedusha if you will, so it’s not easy to just push it aside. Therefore, you’re left with apologetics which means to me “well, we can’t accept what’s written in the text, so we have to find a creative way to flip it on its head to come up with a different interpretation and in the end, preserve the sanctity of the text.” If I were allowed to teach in a Chabad school (which I don’t think would ever happen), and I was told I had to teach Tanya, I would present the text for what it is, then I would present its historical context, then I would put the question on the table, “how does this text speak to us today given what we believe our mission to be, etc”. I would present the conflict between the values that we hold (ie. not being racisit), and the values of the text, and I would perhaps ask about what prejudices we may have today. In 300 years from now, how will our children look back on us? For me, this is what text study means, but I refuse to avoid the text just because the messages in them are repulsive to me. I realize that this is very theoretical, but it shows what I believe to be the importance of parshanut.
Eric writes:
“…the point that I’m making is that you first have to take into account the historical background of the time period when these texts were compiled. If we were living in 18th century eastern Europe, I think that we would hate all non-Jews as well, because living in insular communities, our only interaction with non-Jews would be within an anti-Semitic context.”
This is absoultely false. There was much contact between Jes and non-Jews, most of it good.
Eric, in regards to the latter part of your comment I agree one hundred percent.
In my bitterness, I sometimes I tend to classify anyone who identifies him or herself as a lubavitcher, as a racist, even though the truth is they might, like you say, be totally ignorant of the facts.
However the litvaks, reformed and conservative, and secular racist jews you’ve come across, have deviated from their philosophies. In other wards, they’re hypocrites. Not so for the lubavitcher, the hasid, or any jew who these mysticism has seeped in to their psyche.
“And it also teaches that non jews can become wonderful moral people, regardless of where their soul stems from. ”
The non jews can become moral but the jew is moral just for being jewish – that is racism, and your promoting of such, i am sorry but makes you a racist.
Helping people out when they are down is not love it is an accommodation, period.
Stop deluding yourself, it is shameful to believe that some humans are not only better than other hu ans but their actual souls are worthless just for who they are, this is immoral – if there is a god are greatly offending him.
All the apologist wanting to defend the primitive thinking of these uneducated leaders, should take time and thoughtfully consider these how disturbing this kind of sick mentallity really is.
In almost every single case, with very few exceptions, every nationality/race/religion has historically thought itself to be in some way superior to others. Judaism is no exception, and to a greater extent I guess Chabad is also no exception. I’m not defending the belief, as I’ve stated on numerous occasions I find it to be offensive, but it is dishonest not keep this in mind when debating the issue.
The open secret in chabad leadership is not the love for their fellow tribesman, but rather the desire to incease the flok (turned into sheeples) in order to elevate their own personal value both in the community and in the outside world, and finally for gaining Gods devine attention for his supposed moral actions and contributions.
This is false altruism as it done for the belief in an ultimate reward .
“Nice spin on the Tanya. It’s not true, however, as anyone with a real background in hasidut would know.”
Its not a spin, what I wrote is the truth.
“but the jew is moral just for being jewish – that is racism, and your promoting of such, i am sorry but makes you a racist.”
Nowhere does it say this. Bugsy Segal wasn’t moral. Jews have the potential to become very righteous or very wicked. As do non Jews. You don’t want to look at the facts. You want so badly to be able to label Chabad racist, it would promote your own racism against Chabad so well. Look at the truth. Look at everything said. The facts are:
1. both jews and non jews can be righteous or wicked.
2. Both jews and non jews can earn a share in the world to come.
3. Regardless of a person’s religion, halacha and the teachings of chassidus require kindness and compassion towards everyone.
4. Jewish views of having a greater potential for G-dliness is a concept that is meant to make one a better more kind person towards everyone else.
5. Every religion says they are better than others because they have a special connection with G-d, that others who are not of their faith do not have. Yet we don’t label Christians, Moslems, Hindus, Buddhists, and every other religion as racist. So we shouldn’t do so against Chabad either.
6. Just because there are individuals who are racists in the Jewish religion does not mean that you can label the Jewish religion or all Jews as racist.
You’re wrong. You’re just too ignorant to know it.
1. There is an argument in halakha about whether non-Jews – even Bnai Noach – have a place in the world to come. Did you know that? Did you know that in the 1980s, when Chabad began pushing Bnai Noach (to prevent another Holocaust, the Rebbe said) Chabad held that Bnai Noach got all their reward here and had no place in Olam HaBa? Of course you didn’t know any of this.
2. Your #3 is absolutely false.
3. So is your #4.
4. Following the correct teachings and thinking others do not is not racist. Thinking others have SOULS THAT COME FROM THE ROOT OF EVIL OR ARE NO DIFFERENT THAN THE SOUL OF A COW IS RACIST. Process that.
Eric,
You have to understand that the Tanya is considered to be just as sacred bible, to those who adhere to true lubavitch ideas.
“You want so badly to be able to label Chabad racist, it would promote your own racism against Chabad so well.”
chabad is not a people/race/nationality, it’s an ideology.
as for the rest of your blog, OH MY GOD…
AGAIN,
”
I reiterate, the tanya, and some other jewish mystism is of the opinion that:
Jews are superior to non-jews, not because of belief, practice, or ethics. But simply by their very being jewish.
Supposed non-jews who convert to judaism, are really jews.
Non jews on the other are of entirely “diffrent nature”… and are as lowly as the lowest of creatures.
There is no choice. It’s just a pre-determened dispositon.
This, is the exact definition of racism.
Where as rational judaism, and other religions, give the person a CHOICE to be “just as good as the other person”… the tanya, does no such thing.”
“Me, I don’t think chabad would reject someone like that. I’ve seen chabadniks especially shluchim be especially kind to those who are just thinking about converting,. So someone who had lived their life as though they were a Jew, even if they weren’t, would most definitely be treated with the same kindness as they had always been treated with.”
I do think so, cuz I KNOW SO.
My comments are in italics.
1. both jews and non jews can be righteous or wicked.
“the worst jew, does not come CLOSE to the most righteus gentile”
–some kabbalistic moqor, you tell me
“…however gentile souls are of an entirely different nature. “they are derived from the three klipot, they are entirely EVIL and have NO GOOD to them, whatsoever.”
2. Both jews and non jews can earn a share in the world to come.
well… according to the video you posted, that’s not true.
3. Regardless of a person’s religion, halacha and the teachings of chassidus require kindness and compassion towards everyone.
OH NO IT DOES NOT!… chassidus, doesn’t even exept other forms of judaism!
4. Jewish views of having a greater potential for G-dliness is a concept that is meant to make one a better more kind person towards everyone else.
no… it doesn’t… it has the EXACT OPPOSITE effect”
5. Every religion says they are better than others because they have a special connection with G-d, that others who are not of their faith do not have. Yet we don’t label Christians, Moslems, Hindus, Buddhists, and every other religion as racist. So we shouldn’t do so against Chabad either.
That’s not true, EVERY religion, including rational judaism says that a person can find blessednes and be “JUST AS GOOD AS THE NEXT GUY” so long as he adheres to it’s tenets!
6. Just because there are individuals who are racists in the Jewish religion does not mean that you can label the Jewish religion or all Jews as racist.
did you hear me or Shmarya or anyone here call all jews racist? We were very specific.
My comments are in italics.
1. both jews and non jews can be righteous or wicked.
“the worst jew, does not come CLOSE to the most righteus gentile”
–some kabbalistic moqor, you tell me
“…however gentile souls are of an entirely different nature. “they are derived from the three klipot, they are entirely EVIL and have NO GOOD to them, whatsoever.”
–the tanya
2. Both jews and non jews can earn a share in the world to come.
well, according to the video you posted, that’s not true.
3.Regardless of a person’s religion, halacha and the teachings of chassidus require kindness and compassion towards everyone.
OH NO IT DOES NOT!… chassidus, doesn’t even exept other forms of judaism!
4. Jewish views of having a greater potential for G-dliness is a concept that is meant to make one a better more kind person towards everyone else.
no… it doesn’t… it has the EXACT OPPOSITE effect”
5. Every religion says they are better than others because they have a special connection with G-d, that others who are not of their faith do not have. Yet we don’t label Christians, Moslems, Hindus, Buddhists, and every other religion as racist. So we shouldn’t do so against Chabad either.
That’s not true, EVERY religion, including rational judaism says that a person can find blessednes and be “JUST AS GOOD AS THE NEXT GUY” so long as he adheres to it’s tenets!
6. Just because there are individuals who are racists in the Jewish religion does not mean that you can label the Jewish religion or all Jews as racist.
did you hear me or Shmarya, call all jews racist? No, we were very specific.
NOTE TO SHMARYA: Please delete the first one, and delete the second. I messed up, and someone might confused.
My comments are in italics.
1. both jews and non jews can be righteous or wicked.
“the worst jew, does not come CLOSE to the most righteus gentile”
–some kabbalistic moqor, you tell me
“…however gentile souls are of an entirely different nature. “they are derived from the three klipot, they are entirely EVIL and have NO GOOD to them, whatsoever.”
2. Both jews and non jews can earn a share in the world to come.
well… according to the video you posted, that’s not true.
3. Regardless of a person’s religion, halacha and the teachings of chassidus require kindness and compassion towards everyone.
OH NO IT DOES NOT!… chassidus, doesn’t even exept other forms of judaism!
4. Jewish views of having a greater potential for G-dliness is a concept that is meant to make one a better more kind person towards everyone else.
no… it doesn’t… it has the EXACT OPPOSITE effect”
5. Every religion says they are better than others because they have a special connection with G-d, that others who are not of their faith do not have. Yet we don’t label Christians, Moslems, Hindus, Buddhists, and every other religion as racist. So we shouldn’t do so against Chabad either.
That’s not true, EVERY religion, including rational judaism says that a person can find blessednes and be “JUST AS GOOD AS THE NEXT GUY” so long as he adheres to it’s tenets!
6.Just because there are individuals who are racists in the Jewish religion does not mean that you can label the Jewish religion or all Jews as racist.
did you hear me or Shmarya or anyone here call all jews racist? No,We were very specific.
Shmarya, post that one. thank you.
oh sh-t! what happened?
Kol YISROEL Yesh Lahem Chelek L’olam Haboh. Is that racist too?
Ed,
where is that from?
Don’t be a moron, ed. All Jews have a place in the world to come is a mishna. It’s no more racist than Christians saying all who believe are saved – unless Judasim limits olam haba to Jews only, or to very special non-Jews and all Jews. Then it would be bigoted.
It is what we added to that mishna that is racist and bigoted.
To be clear –
Saying non-Jews have no place in the world to come, or that only a handful of the most special non-Jews have a place, is what is bigoted.
Shmarya, when and where did the Lubavitcher rebbe say “Chabad held that Bnai Noach got all their reward here and had no place in Olam HaBa? “
“Saying non-Jews have no place in the world to come, or that only a handful of the most special non-Jews have a place, is what is bigoted.”
Saying that non Christians have no place in the world to come, or that only a handful of the most special non-christians have a place, is what is bigoted.
Process that.
I did not say the Rebbe said it; I said Chabad held it. How do I know? A Chabad friend wrote a book about Bnai Noach. He told me the rabbonim he asked all held no olam haba.
Shalom –
No, you still don’t get it. Christians don’t say non-Christian souls are from evil or that were a genetically unable to get to heaven. They say accept J and you’re saved.
Judaism says either convert – and that is made difficult – or no olam haba. Worse than that, we say (according to the Tanya) that non-Jewish souls are from an evil source.
Again, all Christians say is that there is one path to heaven. Anyone can take that path. We do not say the same.
Saying that those who were lucky enough to hear a special message, ie that chtistianity is true, or that islam is true, and everyone else who didnt hear about it, or who didnt know enough about it is destined to hell and is not special and loved by G-d, is no different than what we are discussing here.
Who is this friend and what book?
Path of the Ritgheous Gentile.
That makes absolutely no sense. What would be the point of sheva mitzvos if there was no olam haba. It doesnt add up. Until you can provide me with any chassidic text that says that, or even show me one lubavitcher that says that, I don’t believe it.
That makes absolutely no sense. What would be the point of sheva mitzvos if there was no olam haba. It doesnt add up. Until you can provide me with any chassidic text that says that, or even show me one lubavitcher that says that, I don’t believe it.
That makes absolutely no sense. What would be the point of sheva mitzvos if there was no olam haba. It doesnt add up. Until you can provide me with any chassidic text that says that, or even show me one lubavitcher that says that, I don’t believe it.
it’s also important to note that when the mishna says such a thing its talking about “one who adheres to judaism” not someone who supposedly born a jew. Indeed, if you look at the writings of Maimonides, and other rationalist, someone who no longer practices judaism. or one hasn’t, is not called a jew.
it’s also important to note that when the mishna says such a thing its talking about “one who adheres to judaism” not someone who supposedly born a jew. Indeed, if you look at the writings of Maimonides, and other rationalist, someone who no longer practices judaism. or one hasn’t, is not called a jew.
it’s also important to note that when the mishna says such a thing its talking about “one who adheres to judaism” not someone who supposedly born a jew. Indeed, if you look at the writings of Maimonides, and other rationalist, someone who no longer practices judaism. or one hasn’t, is not called a jew.
Shalom –
It’s a machloket in the gemara.
Shalom –
It’s a machloket in the gemara.
Shalom –
It’s a machloket in the gemara.
thanks shmarya for the opportunity to discuss this ery important topic intelligently. kol oysso halayla. and now, higiya zman qrios shma shel shachris!
thanks shmarya for the opportunity to discuss this ery important topic intelligently. kol oysso halayla. and now, higiya zman qrios shma shel shachris!
thanks shmarya for the opportunity to discuss this ery important topic intelligently. kol oysso halayla. and now, higiya zman qrios shma shel shachris!
me: “If you REALLY believe that chabad is pagan, and has no place in judaism, then why do associate with chabad. EVERY CHABADNIK is racist, if he’s not, then he ceases to a chabadnik.”
Sorry for not getting back to you sooner. Life intervened, so I was away from my computer. I don’t seek out chabad anymore, but I used to when I was a naive BT. However, it is almost impossible to avoid them. For example, my MO shul hired a chabadnik last year. (They have since replaced him with another MO rabbi, since it was a bad fit). I didn’t agree with his ideology, but he was a nice enough guy. He was definitely not racist (I could give details). In general, I try not to be a hater, but take individuals as they come. But I do think chabad & kabbalah in general has pagan influences. (Sitra Acher= Zoroastrianism; nitzotzot/klippot= Neoplatonism; rebbe-worship= Christianity, etc.).
me: “If you REALLY believe that chabad is pagan, and has no place in judaism, then why do associate with chabad. EVERY CHABADNIK is racist, if he’s not, then he ceases to a chabadnik.”
Sorry for not getting back to you sooner. Life intervened, so I was away from my computer. I don’t seek out chabad anymore, but I used to when I was a naive BT. However, it is almost impossible to avoid them. For example, my MO shul hired a chabadnik last year. (They have since replaced him with another MO rabbi, since it was a bad fit). I didn’t agree with his ideology, but he was a nice enough guy. He was definitely not racist (I could give details). In general, I try not to be a hater, but take individuals as they come. But I do think chabad & kabbalah in general has pagan influences. (Sitra Acher= Zoroastrianism; nitzotzot/klippot= Neoplatonism; rebbe-worship= Christianity, etc.).
me: “If you REALLY believe that chabad is pagan, and has no place in judaism, then why do associate with chabad. EVERY CHABADNIK is racist, if he’s not, then he ceases to a chabadnik.”
Sorry for not getting back to you sooner. Life intervened, so I was away from my computer. I don’t seek out chabad anymore, but I used to when I was a naive BT. However, it is almost impossible to avoid them. For example, my MO shul hired a chabadnik last year. (They have since replaced him with another MO rabbi, since it was a bad fit). I didn’t agree with his ideology, but he was a nice enough guy. He was definitely not racist (I could give details). In general, I try not to be a hater, but take individuals as they come. But I do think chabad & kabbalah in general has pagan influences. (Sitra Acher= Zoroastrianism; nitzotzot/klippot= Neoplatonism; rebbe-worship= Christianity, etc.).
Shmarya,
You are portraying a false picture of what the Rebbe said or held regarding Bney Noach. The Rebbe promoted the spreading of 7 NOahide Laws. Healso promoted the Halachik notion codified by Maimonedes that a Gentile who performs them has a share in the world to come. THis theme was common that he mentioned it all the time. Whatever your “interpretation” (or misinterprtation) of his addresses you should not deny the facts. The Rebbe was even “obessessed” for every created person to reveal G-dliness through goodness and kindness and to reach hisfull potential and merit the world to come.
Shmarya,
You are portraying a false picture of what the Rebbe said or held regarding Bney Noach. The Rebbe promoted the spreading of 7 NOahide Laws. Healso promoted the Halachik notion codified by Maimonedes that a Gentile who performs them has a share in the world to come. THis theme was common that he mentioned it all the time. Whatever your “interpretation” (or misinterprtation) of his addresses you should not deny the facts. The Rebbe was even “obessessed” for every created person to reveal G-dliness through goodness and kindness and to reach hisfull potential and merit the world to come.
Shmarya,
You are portraying a false picture of what the Rebbe said or held regarding Bney Noach. The Rebbe promoted the spreading of 7 NOahide Laws. Healso promoted the Halachik notion codified by Maimonedes that a Gentile who performs them has a share in the world to come. THis theme was common that he mentioned it all the time. Whatever your “interpretation” (or misinterprtation) of his addresses you should not deny the facts. The Rebbe was even “obessessed” for every created person to reveal G-dliness through goodness and kindness and to reach hisfull potential and merit the world to come.
“Chabad friend wrote a book about Bnai Noach. He told me the rabbonim he asked all held no olam haba.
“Path of the Ritgheous Gentile”
Still lying you piece of shit?? That book was co authored by 2 people so you couldnt name either one could you just because you dont know either of them.
You really think people who look at this blog are complete morons dont you? I told you before, your naming know people as friends of yours is transparent as all hell so have some dignity, you will die alone, unmarried, unmourned, but at least you die clean loser, die clean.
“Chabad friend wrote a book about Bnai Noach. He told me the rabbonim he asked all held no olam haba.
“Path of the Ritgheous Gentile”
Still lying you piece of shit?? That book was co authored by 2 people so you couldnt name either one could you just because you dont know either of them.
You really think people who look at this blog are complete morons dont you? I told you before, your naming know people as friends of yours is transparent as all hell so have some dignity, you will die alone, unmarried, unmourned, but at least you die clean loser, die clean.
“Chabad friend wrote a book about Bnai Noach. He told me the rabbonim he asked all held no olam haba.
“Path of the Ritgheous Gentile”
Still lying you piece of shit?? That book was co authored by 2 people so you couldnt name either one could you just because you dont know either of them.
You really think people who look at this blog are complete morons dont you? I told you before, your naming know people as friends of yours is transparent as all hell so have some dignity, you will die alone, unmarried, unmourned, but at least you die clean loser, die clean.
noch a mazel lubobs do their best not to intermarry with members of mainstream judaism!
noch a mazel lubobs do their best not to intermarry with members of mainstream judaism!
noch a mazel lubobs do their best not to intermarry with members of mainstream judaism!
“If you ever are in need, you always know that your local chabad will help you out no matter what kind of a jew you are and no matter how rich or poor you are.”
Really? Because I sent an email to the chabad rabbi in a nearby city to ask them to help us find a design and funding for a mikvah. Now, you would think this would be an acceptable project, as there are two congregations here and an undetermined number of unaffiliated Jews and university students – yet they wouldn’t even give us the time of day. So much for “helping everyone regardless of income and observance level.”
“If you ever are in need, you always know that your local chabad will help you out no matter what kind of a jew you are and no matter how rich or poor you are.”
Really? Because I sent an email to the chabad rabbi in a nearby city to ask them to help us find a design and funding for a mikvah. Now, you would think this would be an acceptable project, as there are two congregations here and an undetermined number of unaffiliated Jews and university students – yet they wouldn’t even give us the time of day. So much for “helping everyone regardless of income and observance level.”
“If you ever are in need, you always know that your local chabad will help you out no matter what kind of a jew you are and no matter how rich or poor you are.”
Really? Because I sent an email to the chabad rabbi in a nearby city to ask them to help us find a design and funding for a mikvah. Now, you would think this would be an acceptable project, as there are two congregations here and an undetermined number of unaffiliated Jews and university students – yet they wouldn’t even give us the time of day. So much for “helping everyone regardless of income and observance level.”
“you will die alone, unmarried, unmourned, but at least you die clean loser, die clean”
I find what you have written to be inappropriate, if you feel like this about one of your own, i am afraid to ask what you believe about the “others”.
How sad! are we to consider your vile comments to be the product of your jewish heritage? I think not! So where or who teaches you to exhibit such hatred?, Rabbi, family, freinds, or more likely a product of your environment.
BTW, being single is not so bad, sadly many married men are miserable today and hope that they were.
There the one about the newlyweds;
A friend recently married meets a friend and asks how was your first anniversary, where did you take you wife, “to China” says the Husband, you brought your wife to China on your first anniversary, WOW!, what will you then do for your 25th anniversary, says the friend, “I’ll go pick her up”, responds the Husband.
to China
“you will die alone, unmarried, unmourned, but at least you die clean loser, die clean”
I find what you have written to be inappropriate, if you feel like this about one of your own, i am afraid to ask what you believe about the “others”.
How sad! are we to consider your vile comments to be the product of your jewish heritage? I think not! So where or who teaches you to exhibit such hatred?, Rabbi, family, freinds, or more likely a product of your environment.
BTW, being single is not so bad, sadly many married men are miserable today and hope that they were.
There the one about the newlyweds;
A friend recently married meets a friend and asks how was your first anniversary, where did you take you wife, “to China” says the Husband, you brought your wife to China on your first anniversary, WOW!, what will you then do for your 25th anniversary, says the friend, “I’ll go pick her up”, responds the Husband.
to China
“you will die alone, unmarried, unmourned, but at least you die clean loser, die clean”
I find what you have written to be inappropriate, if you feel like this about one of your own, i am afraid to ask what you believe about the “others”.
How sad! are we to consider your vile comments to be the product of your jewish heritage? I think not! So where or who teaches you to exhibit such hatred?, Rabbi, family, freinds, or more likely a product of your environment.
BTW, being single is not so bad, sadly many married men are miserable today and hope that they were.
There the one about the newlyweds;
A friend recently married meets a friend and asks how was your first anniversary, where did you take you wife, “to China” says the Husband, you brought your wife to China on your first anniversary, WOW!, what will you then do for your 25th anniversary, says the friend, “I’ll go pick her up”, responds the Husband.
to China
Sholom, okay let’s just abandon the moral vs. ammoral question for a little… and let’s have a rational arguement, do you beleive that people like Oskar Schindler and other germans who put their life on THE LINE to save jews.. were doing it for their own honor?… This recent guy, The Subway Hero, Wesley Autrey, who did not know if he’s gonna get crushed under that train or not, and jumped in to save another mans life, do you beleive that HE was doing that for his honor???
Are you not stuck with a rational conundrum?
Sholom, okay let’s just abandon the moral vs. ammoral question for a little… and let’s have a rational arguement, do you beleive that people like Oskar Schindler and other germans who put their life on THE LINE to save jews.. were doing it for their own honor?… This recent guy, The Subway Hero, Wesley Autrey, who did not know if he’s gonna get crushed under that train or not, and jumped in to save another mans life, do you beleive that HE was doing that for his honor???
Are you not stuck with a rational conundrum?
Sholom, okay let’s just abandon the moral vs. ammoral question for a little… and let’s have a rational arguement, do you beleive that people like Oskar Schindler and other germans who put their life on THE LINE to save jews.. were doing it for their own honor?… This recent guy, The Subway Hero, Wesley Autrey, who did not know if he’s gonna get crushed under that train or not, and jumped in to save another mans life, do you beleive that HE was doing that for his honor???
Are you not stuck with a rational conundrum?
Me, I feel that the claims that lubavitch doesn’t beleive that non jews have olam haba, and that non jews dont have klipa noga has been disproven. So I don’t think there is any problem with there being selfless acts by non jews. I don’t think the subway hero saved that person for any reason except that it was the right thing to do i.e. lishmah. So I believe that he almost definitely has a nefesh habehames that stems from klipa noga, and I believe he had no thought of honor or reward when he saved that person. Do you agree? Or do you still believe that the the idea of non jews with klipa noga is a lie, and, as shmarya claims (without providing evidence), that lubavitch holds no olam haba for non jews?
Me, I feel that the claims that lubavitch doesn’t beleive that non jews have olam haba, and that non jews dont have klipa noga has been disproven. So I don’t think there is any problem with there being selfless acts by non jews. I don’t think the subway hero saved that person for any reason except that it was the right thing to do i.e. lishmah. So I believe that he almost definitely has a nefesh habehames that stems from klipa noga, and I believe he had no thought of honor or reward when he saved that person. Do you agree? Or do you still believe that the the idea of non jews with klipa noga is a lie, and, as shmarya claims (without providing evidence), that lubavitch holds no olam haba for non jews?
Me, I feel that the claims that lubavitch doesn’t beleive that non jews have olam haba, and that non jews dont have klipa noga has been disproven. So I don’t think there is any problem with there being selfless acts by non jews. I don’t think the subway hero saved that person for any reason except that it was the right thing to do i.e. lishmah. So I believe that he almost definitely has a nefesh habehames that stems from klipa noga, and I believe he had no thought of honor or reward when he saved that person. Do you agree? Or do you still believe that the the idea of non jews with klipa noga is a lie, and, as shmarya claims (without providing evidence), that lubavitch holds no olam haba for non jews?
I don’t provide evidence? You live in a fantasy world, Shalom. One major book of the 7 mitzvot was published during the Rebbe’s tenure by a Chabadnik. ONE. I saw that book’s galleys, I helped edit a bit of it, and I know the author (i.e., the one who actually wrote the book and sold it, as opposed to the one who did some research and provided rabbinic cover).
More than that. I knew many leaders of the Bnai Noach movements.
What you cannot process because you are indoctrinated is that Chabad said one thing publicly and another in private. It does this often, on many different issues.
And, again, saying one or two heroes have olam haba but the rest of the non-Jewish masses do not -– which is YOUR BEST CASE SCENARIO — is hardly an example of enlightened thought.
I don’t provide evidence? You live in a fantasy world, Shalom. One major book of the 7 mitzvot was published during the Rebbe’s tenure by a Chabadnik. ONE. I saw that book’s galleys, I helped edit a bit of it, and I know the author (i.e., the one who actually wrote the book and sold it, as opposed to the one who did some research and provided rabbinic cover).
More than that. I knew many leaders of the Bnai Noach movements.
What you cannot process because you are indoctrinated is that Chabad said one thing publicly and another in private. It does this often, on many different issues.
And, again, saying one or two heroes have olam haba but the rest of the non-Jewish masses do not -– which is YOUR BEST CASE SCENARIO — is hardly an example of enlightened thought.
I don’t provide evidence? You live in a fantasy world, Shalom. One major book of the 7 mitzvot was published during the Rebbe’s tenure by a Chabadnik. ONE. I saw that book’s galleys, I helped edit a bit of it, and I know the author (i.e., the one who actually wrote the book and sold it, as opposed to the one who did some research and provided rabbinic cover).
More than that. I knew many leaders of the Bnai Noach movements.
What you cannot process because you are indoctrinated is that Chabad said one thing publicly and another in private. It does this often, on many different issues.
And, again, saying one or two heroes have olam haba but the rest of the non-Jewish masses do not -– which is YOUR BEST CASE SCENARIO — is hardly an example of enlightened thought.
“How sad! are we to consider your vile comments to be the product of your jewish heritage? I think not! So where or who teaches you to exhibit such hatred?, Rabbi, family, freinds, or more likely a product of your environment.”
In my enviorment pigs like Shmarya dont exist. I have family members who are intermarried, who are converts, I have close friends who are evangelist christians, and one who happens to be a pastor and is BLACK if that matter any. Nobody where I live from whatever spectrum speaks about Judaism or their own faith whatever it is, with the hatred and violence that this swine speaks about it. It always takes a loser like this to turn around like an animal and attack whatever he sees right or wrong. There is nothing different from his vomit then what you see at the Nazi/White Power sites. He dosent get no goddam pass because he is Jewish. He didtn get he wanted so he plays the victim to legitimize his meandering attacks on anything and everything.
Look at other blogs like Dov Bear or Gil Student, or Mental, non of the people there , religous or not reek of the animosity that this son of a bitch has for his birth faith so yes, he deserves all the bile and condemnation that usually would go to a Judeaphobic AntiSemitic Nazi.
“I don’t think the subway hero saved that person for any reason except that it was the right thing to do i.e. lishmah. So I believe that he almost definitely has a nefesh habehames that stems from klipa noga, and I believe he had no thought of honor or reward when he saved that person. Do you agree?”
Of course I agree. BUT THE TANYA DOESN’T.
Without Offense;
I do not belive that the cliams you make about evagelical Christians and Blacks have any truth to them, why? because your are unwilling and incapable to accept that one of your own has legitimate views that differ from yours, and your sole response to this is to hate and try to demonize him, so how can anyone believe that you can accept the “others” and not your own.
The man has created an environment where people can have intelligent discussion (some more so than others) about important topics that are dear to them, which is the present STATE and future DIRECTION of the jewish community, of which contrary to your rantings he has demonstrated that he cares very deeply about, and possibly more so than you.
Sheeples by nature do not care, and silience is dangerous for it condones what it is supposed to condem – those are the ones that are the problem, not those that courageously speak out against them, so as not become so corrupt and distorted that it becomes unrecognizable.
That is the sign of a brave, thoughtful and considered person.
Judging by your post thoughtfulness and considered may not be your strong points.
This type of behaviour maybe more reflective of you than on him.
Again, no offence intended.
To believe that one group is superior to the other is racist, PERIOD. In any form and by any group.
The Tanya text is racist. PERIOD. Believers of racist ideas are called racist, PERIOD.
Stop looking for rationalization, it only confounds the problem.
Either you believe in equality or you don’t, the answer follows on its own.
“Look at other blogs like Dov Bear or Gil Student, or Mental, non of the people there , religous or not reek of the animosity that this son of a bitch has for his birth faith so yes, he deserves all the bile and condemnation that usually would go to a Judeaphobic AntiSemitic Nazi.”
Well, Gil Student has dedictated an entire site into defusing the lies about the talmud and judaism as being racist. It’s brilliant, and what he says rings of Truth. But why would go on and defend a book that’s not even part of the mesora. Both has coused so muh tension among jew an jerws, and jews and non-jews.
Shmarya, does a great service I think, unless of course you have something to hide. If shmarya is lying, then shmarya is lying, but HE’S NOT. Shmarya helps jews, he doesn’t hinder them. Thank you.
whoever posted that “Without Offense” comment. THANK YOU.
and Sholom, this should put to rest any questions you have:
http://www.sichosinenglish.org/books/letters-rebbe-1/46.htm
and hears the results I got for when searching “gentile souls”:
http://www.sichosinenglish.org/cgi-bin/swish?mcount=-1&dir=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.SichosInEnglish.org%2Fbooks%2Fletters-rebbe-1&words=gentile+souls
The PROOF, as they say, is in the pudding.
bassicaly, the the last lubavitcher rebbe beleived that people like Yeshu, and Elisha Ben Abuya and BUGSEY SEAGAL, Meyer Lansky, Dutch Shultz, Abe “Kid Twist” Reles and others, will inevedibly inherit olam Haba, of the highest kind simply because their jewish and for no other reason.
bassicaly, the the last lubavitcher rebbe beleived that people like Yeshu, and Elisha Ben Abuya and BUGSEY SEAGAL, Meyer Lansky, Dutch Shultz, Abe “Kid Twist” Reles and others, will inevedibly inherit Olam Haba, of the highest kind simply because their jewish and for no other reason.
In my enviorment pigs like Shmarya dont exist. I have family members who are intermarried,….whatever it is, with the hatred and violence that this swine speaks about it.
whoever u are, you come across as kkk, not jewish. you and yours mascarade as jews.
shmarya your host on the other hand, comes across as a perfect gentleman.
Rabbi Shmuley Boteach, by the way, is a very blatant Lubavitcher. He clearly identifies himself as such. Perhaps, some of the Lubavitch leaders may have distanced themselves from affiliating with him for his provocative views. However he clearly identifies as a Lubi and as a shaliach of the late Lubavitcher Rebbe. He has even written sentiments of the Rebbe as being the Moshiach . He clearly maintains Lubavitch minhagim, so when you are accusing all of Lubavitch, he is included amongst all the open minded Chabadniks.
Also, the Lessons in Tanya is translation of an earlier work from the 50’s called “Shiurei Tanya” so again you are wrong with negating it to the 90’s. Besides the author of Tanya called the book “lequtei amarim” which means that he merely compiled teachings from previous sources. Your commentary is just another one of your pointless wars against the Lubavitch movement and will only persuade the losers who have petty issues against them. You totally ignore the truth and rewrite history with with your biased views.
Rabbi Boteach is an astute follower, teacher and student of the Tanya, ask him what he thinks about your profound interpretations.
When a potential convert goes before a rabbi and I mean an Orthodox one (MO if you want to know) that person is told, ‘it is easier to merit salvation as a non-Jew than being Jewish so to merit salvation one need not be Jewish’
So from a fast read of the comments here it seems that the Tanya could be compared to{fill in the blank]
Josh,
I know somebody that did. And shmuely at first denied it, and then when he gave him a direct quote from the tanya, shmuley blocked him from emailing him again.
Shmuley is not racist, and if he has a heart he’s extremely disturbed by what it says.. only what? he’s been identifying himself for so long as a lubavitcher, that perhaps he’s scared that he’ll catch a lot of flak. But shmuely by NO MEANS agrees with chabad-chassidus, when it comes to sex for example, and definitly not about non-jews.
“Rabbi Boteach is an astute follower, teacher and student of the Tanya, ask him what he thinks about your profound interpretations.”
Um, it’s not my interpetation, it’s a DIRECT QUOTE
1- The charge of racism at chabad and ALter Rebbe is ludicrous for it has got nothing to do with RACE. After all chabad and charefdim accept and indorporate as one of their own any convert who converted halachikally and give the respect as such. Many examples…
2- Your charges about the Alter Rebbe and your interpretation thereof does not reflect the image he reflected and impressed upon the gentiles in real life.
In his Halachik works he codified numerous times about following the law of the land. I have recently seen a letter by his granson the Tzemach Tzedek attesting to the fact how the Alter Rebbe respected the law of the land.
Let’s try to give a different perspective to his writings in Tanya. when he talks about “good” and “evil” he is not referring to good and evil in literal terms as it is used in common language. He obviously knew and respected how Gentiles did good deeds and have a tzellem elokim. He is using a different framework where good and evil are measured in terms of how much they are connected with G-d and the creator in a revealed fashion. Are the actions of the entity separate from the creator? Are they representing an entity indepedent of G-d? If yes, it is described as “evil”; if it is connected with G-d in it’s very essence it is described as “Good”. This is the language refered to in Tanya.
But in any event in practice: The Rebbe had voiced in his talks the need and urgency of influencing non Jews to observe their Noahide Laws and always mentioned how the Rambam writes and codifies that by doing so they will reach the world come and be regarded as chassidey umois hoolom.
“But in any event in practice: The Rebbe had voiced in his talks the need and urgency of influencing non Jews to observe their Noahide Laws and always mentioned how the Rambam writes and codifies that by doing so they will reach the world come and be regarded as chassidey umois hoolom.”
This means that varing beliefs of non-jews are all irrelevant and without any value, even though they may be believed to be devinely inspired and canonized, and only what may BELIEVE is superior – this is the very essence of RACISM, on the basis the Tanya text is racist,along with those that promote its teachings.
The Noahide laws may be your prefence but with what right do we have to demand that this should be the their laws?
Does anyone have any right to dictate what we should believe, and state what is the value of our soul, i think not.
Having no respect fot the value and traditions of others is another racist ideological belief that you so eagerly and willfuly promote, apologist of racism are racist themselves no matter how much camoflage one use’s to beneath it.
First of all, as I’ve already mentioned, there is a kabbalistic moqor, who say that non-jews who convert are really in fact jews (with jewish souls) who have “rediscovered themselves.” (kinda takes away from the whole beauty of it, I know.
Second, the tanya does refer to good and evil, in the Moral sense of the word. As he goes on to say “any GOOD that gentiles DO ONLY TO PROMOTE their honor.
Meaning that they litterly can’t do goodness for it’s own sake. Only that they always have ulterior motives.
If he wasn’t clear in that one line, the author of the tanya, goes on to EXPLAIN himself, and not to leave any doubt what of he really meant.
Besides racism is not the only problem the ideas tanya has… pantheism, and ascribing God parts, is what rendered it heretical in allmost every other sect. in judaism.
Chassidism, did not bring with itself love, quite the contrary Never has there been so much hatred and infighting among RELIGIOUS jews then with the rise of chassidism.
The Empirical Truth is, that the tanya, has caused more hate then love among jews and jews, and jews and non-jews.
I do get Ed’s point, he acctually has the same opinion as The Encyclopedia Judaica, that states:
“It would seem that the more extreme, and exclusive, interpretations of the doctrine of election, among Jewish thinkers, were partly the result of reaction to oppression by the non-Jewish world. The more the Jew was forced to close in on himself, to withdraw into the imposed confines of the ghetto, the more he tended to emphasize Israel’s difference from the cruel gentile without. Only thus did his suffering become intelligible and bearable. This type of interpretation reaches its height in the Kabbalistic idea that while the souls of Israel stem ultimately from God, the souls of the gentiles are merely of base material (kelippot, “shells”). When the Jew was eventually allowed to find his place in a gentile world, the less exclusivist aspect of the doctrine reasserted itself.”
Perhaps this is what influenced the alter rebbe’s views, and the moqors that he basis them on. But the fact is they cannot be traced back to anywhere in the mesora.
The Torah states “do not add, and do not subtract”
First of all, as I’ve already mentioned, there is a kabbalistic moqor, who say that non-jews who convert are really in fact jews (with jewish souls) who have “rediscovered themselves.” (kinda takes away from the whole beauty of it, I know.
Second, the tanya does refer to good and evil, in the Moral sense of the word. As he goes on to say “any GOOD that gentiles DO is ONLY TO PROMOTE their honor.
Meaning that they litterly can’t do goodness for it’s own sake. Only that they always have ulterior motives.
If he wasn’t clear in that one line, the author of the tanya, goes on to EXPLAIN himself, and not to leave any doubt what of he really meant.
Besides racism is not the only problem the ideas tanya has… pantheism, and ascribing God parts, is what rendered it heretical in allmost every other sect. in judaism.
Chassidism, did not bring with itself love, quite the contrary Never has there been so much hatred and infighting among RELIGIOUS jews then with the rise of chassidism.
The Empirical Truth is, that the tanya, has caused more hate then love among jews and jews, and jews and non-jews.
I do get Ed’s point, he acctually has the same opinion as The Encyclopedia Judaica, that states:
“It would seem that the more extreme, and exclusive, interpretations of the doctrine of election, among Jewish thinkers, were partly the result of reaction to oppression by the non-Jewish world. The more the Jew was forced to close in on himself, to withdraw into the imposed confines of the ghetto, the more he tended to emphasize Israel’s difference from the cruel gentile without. Only thus did his suffering become intelligible and bearable. This type of interpretation reaches its height in the Kabbalistic idea that while the souls of Israel stem ultimately from God, the souls of the gentiles are merely of base material (kelippot, “shells”). When the Jew was eventually allowed to find his place in a gentile world, the less exclusivist aspect of the doctrine reasserted itself.”
Perhaps this is what influenced the alter rebbe’s views, and the moqors that he basis them on. But the fact is they cannot be traced back to anywhere in the mesora.
The Torah command us “do not add, and do not subtract”
First of all, as I’ve already mentioned, there is a kabbalistic moqor, who say that non-jews who convert are really in fact jews (with jewish souls) who have “rediscovered themselves.” (kinda takes away from the whole beauty of it, I know.
Second, the tanya does refer to good and evil, in the Moral sense of the word. As he goes on to say “any GOOD that gentiles DO is ONLY TO PROMOTE their honor.
Meaning that they litterly can’t do goodness for it’s own sake. Only that they always have ulterior motives.
If he wasn’t clear in that one line, the author of the tanya, goes on to EXPLAIN himself, and not to leave any doubt what of he really meant.
Besides racism is not the only problem the ideas tanya has… pantheism, and ascribing God parts, is what rendered it heretical in allmost every other sect. in judaism.
Chassidism, did not bring with itself love, quite the contrary Never has there been so much hatred and infighting among RELIGIOUS jews then with the rise of chassidism.
The Empirical Truth is, that the tanya, has caused more hate then love among jews and jews, and jews and non-jews.
I do get Ed’s point, he acctually has the same opinion as The Encyclopedia Judaica, that states:
“It would seem that the more extreme, and exclusive, interpretations of the doctrine of election, among Jewish thinkers, were partly the result of reaction to oppression by the non-Jewish world. The more the Jew was forced to close in on himself, to withdraw into the imposed confines of the ghetto, the more he tended to emphasize Israel’s difference from the cruel gentile without. Only thus did his suffering become intelligible and bearable. This type of interpretation reaches its height in the Kabbalistic idea that while the souls of Israel stem ultimately from God, the souls of the gentiles are merely of base material (kelippot, “shells”). When the Jew was eventually allowed to find his place in a gentile world, the less exclusivist aspect of the doctrine reasserted itself.”
Perhaps this is what influenced the alter rebbe’s views, and the moqors that he basis them on. But the fact is they cannot be traced back to anywhere in the mesora.
The Torah commands us “do not add, and do not subtract”
Shmarya, post the last please. Thanks.
You seem to have no idea whatsoever of the intellectual and spirtual richness of any of the many other religion, we have a monopoly on it, regardless of all the bigoted and racist commentaries by our past learned leaders given on this matter, they all seem twisted ideologicaly.
One must live in a secluded world to hold such beliefs, and if one does live in seclusion, he has no understanding of the greater world, and as such no right whatsoever to pretent he knows best, apart from being racist it is also very arrogantly foolish.
b
Dear Last Commenter,
I know.
it means that if the values of superiority are translated into practices of treating the other inhumanely or unjustly (or in ways used in USA that one ifnringes the “rights” of the other) that is where it crossed the line.
But with regards to feelings of supriority per se, no one group is immune from feelings of superiroity over others. For example all “rationalists” in this blog (who hate Judaism and anything related tp the leap of faith in the LAmighty that is a bit higher than their raitonale) have a tremendous senseof superiority and hubris over their counterparts. let’s call me and shmarya and their colleagues racists and bigots and campaign against their ideologies for they spread an air of superiority over those beleiive different than them.
You abhor the fact that i believe in Hashem who commanded me to observe laws and He commanded me to influence non Jews to tell them that they are commanded in the 7 Noahide LAws and that is how they will come to the world to come. You do not believe in the Torah so you come with your above mentioned points. But the Rationalist Maimonedes has codified in his halachik work that it is indeed the obligation of jews to tell their gentile neighbors and dwellers of earth on all the above.
Me: it was clear before that you abhor other ideas of the Alter Rebbe that is consonant with yuor rational world view that the rational is the ultimate entity and that G-d as a suprarationasl entity that permeates in the world is anathema to you in a practical sense. so you look for other pretexts to make the tanya look bad and you go on a fishing campaign.
It does not matter, at the end of the day your world is devoid of the light of the Eyn SOf it is filled with the forces of darkness of klipot and it is exactly against these forces that Jews fight from the timesof the giving of the torah until the ultimate redemption when you too will experience and see how all jews and their gentile neighbors all together will recognize the supremacy of G-d and G-dliness in everything.
dear last person,
y’sound smart… read all my comments THOROUGHLY, and you will see what I beleive. I’m a seeker of Truth… Aish, Gil Student and others have some what turned me on to religion. As I see it now, Judaism is a very rational religion. Chassidism cannot trace it’s roots in to the mesora, and has caused the greatest amount of hatred among RELIGIOUS Jews.
Of course, every race/nationality/country/religion has a spirit of chauvinism, but this is far from a a considered-to-be bible-sacred dogma that say’s that every body else are a bunch of sub-human lowly animals.
Why aren’t lubavitcher’s aloud to listen to non-jewish music?
now I’ll illustrate to you what exactly they do believe, and what are the consequences of those beliefs. After this there should be no more question in any mind, regarding the chabad-chassidic of equality…
Where as regular religious jews might not want outside secular influences coming in to their homes, because it might have ideas that are antithetical to theirs, the chabad view is an entirely different one altogether. ANY SONG, even one with the most cleanest and most beautiful lyrics, hell even just a tune, that is composed by a non-jew is forbidden. Why? because their evil, and their souls come from evil.
On the other hand if the singer, or the composer of the melody is a JEW, but the lyrics ARE antithetical to judaism, (of course so long as they don’t say that the last lubavitch rebbe is not moshiach) his music is totally fine.
But don’t fret dear people, I once had a chabad dude (one of the nicer ones) suggest that my soul must come from a much higher place, since I “question so much”… so maybe I’m just going through a classic case of “yerida tzarich aliya.”
🙂
Why aren’t lubavitcher’s allowed to listen to non-jewish music?
now I’ll illustrate to you what exactly they do believe, and what are the consequences of those beliefs. After this there should be no more question in any body’s mind, regarding the chabad-chassidic idea of equality…
Where as regular religious jews might not want outside secular influences coming in to their homes, because it might have ideas that are antithetical to theirs, the chabad view is an entirely different one altogether. ANY SONG, even one with the most cleanest and most beautiful lyrics, hell even just a tune, that is composed by a non-jew is forbidden. Why? because their evil, and their souls come from evil.
On the other hand if the singer, or the composer of the melody is a JEW, but the lyrics ARE antithetical to judaism, (of course so long as they don’t say that the last lubavitch rebbe is not moshiach) his music is totally fine.
But don’t fret dear people, I once had a chabad dude (one of the nicer ones) suggest that my soul must come from a much higher place, since I “question so much”… so maybe I’m just going through a classic case of “yerida tzarich aliya.”
🙂
I still say that any religion that forbids intermarriage has some form of racism to it. You are saying that a person is not worthy of marrying, regardless of their charachter or personal merit. Just because they are not a jew, you suddenly cant marry them. And I know you would all agree that it is better for a jew to marry a fellow jew who may lack loving kindness towards others and who isn’t the best of people, than marry a good hearted, kind, loving hindu. I think you need to look at mainstream Judaism (and all religions that prohibit intermarriage) before you jump on the Tanya as racist.
I personally feel that racism is only bad when it has harmful effects. If someone were to say that Jews are smarter than other peoples per capita, would that be racist? Yet Jews have won around 25% of all nobel prizes. And Jews have accomplished way more in terms of their numbers in all fields of academia and entertainment. Is this a racist comment? Maybe. But racism is only bad when it has actual negative consequences towards others. If it leads to violence, hate and murder, then it is bad. But if it leads to people having more confidence in themselves to make the world a better place, I don’t that this form of “racism” is so bad.
“I still say that any religion that forbids intermarriage has some form of racism to it. You are saying that a person is not worthy of marrying, regardless of their charachter or personal merit. Just because they are not a jew, you suddenly cant marry them.”
If they are willing to convert, then they are just a jewish as anyone else.
“If someone were to say that Jews are smarter than other peoples per capita, would that be racist? Yet Jews have won around 25% of all nobel prizes. And Jews have accomplished way more in terms of their numbers in all fields of academia and entertainment. Is this a racist comment?”
see this article:
http://www.aish.com/jewishissues/jewishsociety/Are_Jews_Smarter$.asp
again, EVERY RACE/RELIGION/CREED/COUNTRY and CULTURE has a chauvinistic spirit, they all beleive, “we’re better then them” (at least to some exact). HOWEVER, this is quite different then the a considered-to-be bible-sacred dogma that say’s that every body else are a bunch of sub-human animals. THAT’S racism!
*and that no matter how much good they do, no matter what their traits, or what they beleive, they can never escape that classification. THAT’S RACISM.
I think that’s the MAIN POINT I didn’t stress in the previous comment, and that’s you didn’t understand. Thanks.
And yes it HAS caused violence, hate and murder.. have you ever heard of the GOLDSTEIN MASSACRE?…
look, all philosophies have consequences. If they’re good, they’re good. If they’re bad they’re bad. If your philosophy maintains that all non-jews are lowly animals, then your bound to have people committing nazi-ish acts, as a CONSEQUENCE OF THAT PHILOSPHY.
Hitler, in his twisted mind believed that all jews, no matter who, no matter what, were the SCUM OF THE EARTH. So he didn’t care to KILL THEM.
There’s the philosophy which is horrible enough, and then there’s the consequences of that philosophy.
“If they are willing to convert, then they are just a jewish as anyone else.”
But if they’re not willing to convert, even though they’re wonderful people, they can’t marry them. Its like saying, “unless you are an american citizen, i can’t marry you.” That is a racist belief. You are judging them by their beliefs, not their actions. I’m sure there are a number of atheists who would say that a persons morality is all that matters, and that judging a person based on their belief is like judging them based on the color of their skin.
And regardless, according to Chabad, any non Jews could potentially convert. Even according to the teaching that non jews who convert are gilgul of Jews only, nonetheless, the option is still open to everyone. So no one in daily life is held back from converting, regardless of this teaching.
And nothing says they are sub human animals. It says they are humans(because if they werent then there would be no prohibition against killing them G-d forbid, like killing an animal) while it says that Jews are humans too with an extra connection to G-d. However you look at this concept of an extra connection to G-d, it is not saying that Jews are better than non Jews. It says that Jews have a greater potential for both good and evil. If they choose to be evil, then they are not better than moral non jews, they are much lower.
However, I still stand by my point that “racism” is a scary word that our society has condemned in every shape or form, to the extent that the constitution goes so far as to say “all men are created equal.” THis is a nice idea, but its not true. All men are created different, with all types of strengths and weaknesses. And to say that the Jewish people have a greater potential for good and for evil, though it may sound racist and maybe even fall under the definition of racism, doesn’t mean that this teaching is evil. Jews are meant to be a light to the nations, and to use their G-d given gifts for good. The problem is with how people choose to behave, not with what the torah teaches.
And BTW, goldstein followed kahane, and they weren’t about killing arabs because they were “sub human” but rather they followed a philosophy that only taking revenge against arab civilians would seve as a real deterrent against terrorist attacks, and only this would stop arab civilians from believing they could harbor these terrorists with no consequences. Goldstein was a unique act based on a fringe group’s philosophy.
Goldstein’s act had nothing to do with a subhuman view of non jews, but had to do with revenge attacks against terrorists and those who harbor them.
Goldstein’s act had nothing to do with a subhuman view of non jews, but had to do with revenge attacks against terrorists and those who harbor them.
“And regardless, according to Chabad, any non Jews could potentially convert. Even according to the teaching that non jews who convert are gilgul of Jews only, nonetheless, the option is still open to everyone. So no one in daily life is held back from converting, regardless of this teaching.”
I don’t know if their gilgus, but their definitly jewish souls. that’s the opinion yes. Now asside from taking away the beauty of someone ACTIVELY CHOOSING to convert,and and not as a pre-determened mystical thing. it also denotes, that not EVERY body, not every non-jews can convert. It’s a pretetermned mystical thing.
It says that there are all kinds of souls, higher and lower ones, even souls that are PURELY evil.
Whoever was born from a jewish mother, gets a good souls, whoever was not get’s an evil animal soul.. some rabbi’s (especialy the chabad ones.. definitly not Rav SHach, or Elyashiv, or Kotler) get even more righteous souls.
But how can you give credit to a man, for being who he is, if it’s “just his soul” that he was given?
BUT THAT JUST A SIDE THING… getting back to our main point you wrote:
“But if they’re not willing to convert, even though they’re wonderful people, they can’t marry them. Its like saying, “unless you are an american citizen, i can’t marry you.” That is a racist belief. You are judging them by their beliefs, not their actions.”
Honey “American”, is not a race.. However if someone says “I hate you, and I think your a lesser creature, because your black, latina, or whatever.” or “I hate you because you were born of a different mother and that’s why your spiritualy, and physicaly maimed, and your soul comes from evil…” That’s racism.
That article that I gave you, is written by an ulra-orthodox who’s trying to REFUTE that KIND OF RACISM.
do me a favor, go to “sichosinenglish.org”, don’t beleive what I tell you, but do a search on the topics discussed, see what you get.
“And regardless, according to Chabad, any non Jews could potentially convert. Even according to the teaching that non jews who convert are gilgul of Jews only, nonetheless, the option is still open to everyone. So no one in daily life is held back from converting, regardless of this teaching.”
I don’t know if their gilgus, but their definitly jewish souls. that’s the opinion yes. Now asside from taking away the beauty of someone ACTIVELY CHOOSING to convert,and and not as a pre-determened mystical thing. it also denotes, that not EVERY body, not every non-jews can convert. It’s a pretetermned mystical thing.
It says that there are all kinds of souls, higher and lower ones, even souls that are PURELY evil.
Whoever was born from a jewish mother, gets a good souls, whoever was not get’s an evil animal soul.. some rabbi’s (especialy the chabad ones.. definitly not Rav SHach, or Elyashiv, or Kotler) get even more righteous souls.
But how can you give credit to a man, for being who he is, if it’s “just his soul” that he was given?
BUT THAT’S JUST A SIDE THING… getting back to our main point you wrote:
“But if they’re not willing to convert, even though they’re wonderful people, they can’t marry them. Its like saying, “unless you are an american citizen, i can’t marry you.” That is a racist belief. You are judging them by their beliefs, not their actions.”
Honey “American”, is not a race.. However if someone says “I hate you, and I think your a lesser creature, because your black, latina, or whatever.” or “I hate you because you were born of a different mother and that’s why your spiritualy, and physicaly maimed, and your soul comes from evil…” That’s racism.
That article that I gave you, is written by an ulra-orthodox jew who’s trying to REFUTE that KIND OF RACISM.
do me a favor, go to “sichosinenglish.org”, don’t beleive what I tell you, but do a search on the topics discussed, see what you get.
um, I don’t know if that was Meir Kahane’s view (and I doubt that it was), but Goldtein being a direct descendant of the author of the tanya, and having lubavitch views himself, I’m sure felt it an honor of killing off sub-human evil creatures. While I have no doubt that it was his zealous zionist views that had a lot to do with it, I’m SURE, I’M SURE, that those views were also the ones that colored his vision, and desensitized him.
B”H
Rambam explains in “Guide for the Perplexed” ( see http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navclient&ie=UTF-8&rls=GGLG,GGLG:2005-26,GGLG:en&q=guide+for+the+perplexed )
that there are two types of religious truths
:
necessary educational dogma
and real truth.
The fact that there is one G-d is a real truth the fact that certain souls seemingly have no good in them (never mind other parts of Tanya talk about Jews who basically also have such souls and are not permanent part of the Jewish people etc.)
are all necessary dogmas to force the ignorant masses to behave in a certain way not to intermarry not to convert outside faith despite the obvious benefits of doing so in Tzarist Russia where Tanya was compiled etc.
thanks Noah
and it doesn’t say “seemingly”, it’s very clear. and what other part of the tanya are you talking about?
me,
you hatred and racism and bigotry agaisnt chabad and anyone that has a beleief in something higher than the rationale blinds you to make a cholent and lump things that have no connection with anything under the discussion.
i have no time, but just briefly:
1) Tanya does NOT say that non jews are subhuman. You cause hatred of chabad by lying about it.
2) Goldstein and his actions have GOT NOTHING but nothing to do with chabad and it’s ideology. It has to do with another set of beleifs and with him snapping after losing so many friends.
3) you way off base about music: Chabad says that any music by someone whose morals and ethics and level of serving g-d is not on par should not be lsitened to whether it is a non jews or it is a jew.
4) And again and again: whatever chabasd’s philosophy, the Rebe was on the forefront of jewish leaders who promoted the practice of law in the Rambam to teach 7 noaide laws to all mankind and stressed at all times that this brings these people to merit the world to come!
“It does not matter, at the end of the day your world is devoid of the light of the Eyn SOf it is filled with the forces of darkness of klipot and it is exactly against these forces that Jews fight from the timesof the giving of the torah until the ultimate redemption when you too will experience and see how all jews and their gentile neighbors all together will recognize the supremacy of G-d and G-dliness in everything.”
no actually, what judaism has done is it pulled people and out of the deepest superstitions and insane irrationalities.
it’s claim to Truth is that there were MILLIONS of people at Har Sinai, a miracle that was witnessed by the masses. that’s indeed over claim over other religions, where the supposed miracles other religion’s make claim to were always witnessed by a handfull of people.
What judaism has done is it has pulled us from paganisms of the world… and put a great stress on what is called ETHICAL Monothiesm.. indeed, it has transformed the world in to a much better place… from it came two other religions that influenced humanity.Everyone will agree that there’s almost no real avoda zora nowadays.
However in the 18th and 17th centuries it seems that i guess as a reactionary measure, some members of judaism took once more a dive in to the Occult.
Shmarya actualy had a great post on this:
http://failedmessiah.typepad.com/failed_messiahcom/religion/index.html
If you look back at the rishonim, and the achoronim, Miamonedes, Nachmonides, Bachya ibn Paquda, Sadya Goan… and the religion of the prophets you can actually gain an appreciation for just HOW MUCH rationality judaism braught in to this world.
“It does not matter, at the end of the day your world is devoid of the light of the Eyn SOf it is filled with the forces of darkness of klipot and it is exactly against these forces that Jews fight from the times of the giving of the torah until the ultimate redemption when you too will experience and see how all jews and their gentile neighbors all together will recognize the supremacy of G-d and G-dliness in everything.”
no actually, what judaism has done is it pulled people and out of the deepest superstitions and insane irrationalities.
it’s claim to Truth is that there were MILLIONS of people at Har Sinai, a miracle that was witnessed by the masses. that’s indeed our claim over other religions, where the supposed miracles of other religion’s make claim to, were always witnessed by a handful of people.
What judaism has done is it has pulled us from the paganisms of the world… and put a great stress on what is called ETHICAL Monothiesm.. indeed, it has transformed the world in to a much better place… from it came two other religions that influenced humanity.Everyone will agree that there’s almost no real avoda zora nowadays.
However in the 18th and 17th centuries it seems that i guess as a reactionary measure, some members of judaism took once more a dive in to the Occult.
Shmarya actualy had a great post on this:
http://failedmessiah.typepad.com/failed_messiahcom/religion/index.html
If you look back at the rishonim, and the achoronim, Miamonedes, Nachmonides, Bachya ibn Paquda, Sadya Goan… and the religion of the prophets you can actually gain an appreciation for just HOW MUCH rationality judaism brought in to this world.
Okay let’s take one thing at a time.
1) I don’t HATE anybody, what I do hate are some BELEIFS that people have. I hate the IDEAS that we should defend men and not Truth.
For example, for all of you that cry “sinas chinom” and “where’s your avahas yisroel?”.. well… wouldn’t you try to argue and convince a Neturei Karta, or someone else? who’s veiws you see as being heretical… No, of course you wouldn’t. It’s not hatred for the PERSONS, but their beleifs that you might have a problem with.
2)regarding goldstein, even if it hasn’t… no one can deny that the racial tensions, are much more higher in lubavitch and chassidic communities… they’re also a lot more dishonest and deceiving with gentiles, then most jews.
3)regarding the music, okay, will you go on record to say there is no such thing. Either your lying, or you simply don’t know it. Ask any chabad rabbi, and he’ll tell you.
“Tanya does NOT say that non jews are subhuman. You cause hatred of chabad by lying about it.”
what the tanya says and this is a DIRECT QUOTE from the tanya:
“Gentile souls are of a completely different and inferior order. They are totally evil, with no redeeming qualities whatsoever.”
tell me, DID I PUT A SPIN ON THAT?
“4) And again and again: whatever chabasd’s philosophy, the Rebe was on the forefront of jewish leaders who promoted the practice of law in the Rambam to teach 7 noaide laws to all mankind and stressed at all times that this brings these people to merit the world to come!”
whether it’s true are not, the fact is chabad-chassidus maintains the most extreme exclusivist veiw on this whole debate. According to them unlike, even their Breslov counterpart,
1)non-jews will be slaves to jews in the times of moshiach.
–(inyonei guela u’moshiach)
They all maintain that the olam haba that the most righteous non-jews get is nowhere compared to what jews get. And again as it is clear from sichosinenglish.org the rebbe had a totaly different veiw then what he said openly, like in that video.
Yes the rebbe was a great man, yes he did stand on his feet for hours giving out dollars, and yes he did care about every jew… even the worst of them… so long, of course, as they were jews. Yes he did do a HELL OF A LOT of good,
But the fact is that just hypothetically speaking, if your parents were to get a call tommorow from the hospital, that there was mix up, and that really you have a different mother. all of chabad’s supposed “love” for you, would CEASE
where as people from Aish, and from Mesora.com wouldn’t, I don’t think… normalitive judaism would love you for the FRUITS OF YOUR DEEDS, and for you being made in the image of God, and not for any other reason
at the end of the day, you have to ask yourself: what to defend? Man… or Truth.
whoops, i accidently gave you the wrong link, this is it:
http://failedmessiah.typepad.com/failed_messiahcom/2007/01/rewriting_judai.html
Why are people shocked or maybe surprised that the Tanya or other writing are somewhat racist. The Rabbis base their views from what they believe are Gods words the Torath. The Torah looked at from todays morals ands values is a racist document. For example, we are the chosen people, one can own other human being , a slave, as long as he/she were not Jewish. In addition, one has an obligation to kill an Amolake (spelled wrong) even today, not because of what he or she did. The obligation is simply because he or she is an Amolake. And there are many more examples, when the Jews went to war it says kill EVERY MAN WOMAN CHILD AND ANIMAL.
So if God wrote the Torah and the Torah
says racism is okay, enough said.
However, if one looks at the Torah that is was written by humans, then one can say,
“the Torah was a major leap for mankind and we are better for it.”
I disagree with you, although I’m agnostic I’m gonna be the try being the devil’s advocate. Of course judaism has thing about jews being the chosen nation, here’s an exerpet of an article from answers.com/wikipedia:
“Rabbi Norman Lamm, a leader of Modern Orthodox Judaism writes that “The chosenness of Israel relates exclusively to its spiritual vocation embodied in the Torah; the doctrine, indeed, was announced at Sinai. Whenever it is mentioned in our liturgy – such as the blessing immediately preceding the Shema….it is always related to Torah or Mitzvot (commandments). This spiritual vocation consists of two complementary functions, described as “Goy Kadosh,” that of a holy nation, and “Mamlekhet Kohanim,” that of a kingdom of priests. The first term denotes the development of communal separateness or differences in order to achieve a collective self-transcendence…. The second term implies the obligation of this brotherhood of the spiritual elite toward the rest of mankind; priesthood is defined by the prophets as fundamentally a teaching vocation. … (The Condition of Jewish Belief: A Symposium Compiled by the Editors of Commentary Magazine, 1966)
…Some Haredi Jews hold a differing point of view. Based on teachings in the Tanya and Zohar, they hold that Jews have spiritual advantages over non-Jews.”
In regard to amalake, according to one of Gil Student’s blogs, it seems that an Amalakite can definitly loose his status as an amalakite, so long he abandons the beleifs of his forefathers (in gemmara it even has stories of jewish descendants of Amalake, the they “used to torah in Bnei Brak” or so, and any one can Earn the status of an Amalakite.
I hope to God, (if He exists)that these are not just mere appolegetics. Because I know that Gil later had a blog, that totaly contradicted what he said earlier…
“For example, for all of you that cry “sinas chinom” and “where’s your avahas yisroel?”.. well… wouldn’t you try to argue and convince a Neturei Karta, or someone else? who’s veiws you see as being heretical… No, of course you wouldn’t. It’s not hatred for the PERSONS, but their beleifs that you might have a problem with.”
what I meant to say was “Yes, of course you would”
“For example, for all of you that cry “sinas chinom” and “where’s your avahas yisroel?”.. well… wouldn’t you try to argue and convince a Neturei Karta, or someone else? who’s veiws you see as being heretical… No, of course you wouldn’t. It’s not hatred for the PERSONS, but their beleifs that you might have a problem with.”
what I meant to say was “Yes, of course you would”
“For example, for all of you that cry “sinas chinom” and “where’s your avahas yisroel?”.. well… wouldn’t you try to argue and convince a Neturei Karta, or someone else? who’s veiws you see as being heretical… No, of course you wouldn’t. It’s not hatred for the PERSONS, but their beleifs that you might have a problem with.”
what I meant to say was “Yes, of course you would”
Shmarya, there’s something wrong with my computer, I apologize.
Yes I understand the above. However, those are interpretation of the text written many years after the Torah was written with the interpreters different moral compass. But
the text does not state that.
For example many people would say that the Torah says, do not eat milk and meat when it says no such thing.
As example what I am trying to say is, many people in the US will say that the constitution states and means “all the people are created equal” includes blacks.
That is true the way we interpret it today . However, originally to the founding father
it meant no such thing. It meant all white people.
Bottom line is, did G-d create some souls holier than others? Are some more attuned to holiness than others? For example, all the prophets and great leaders of the Jewish people throughout history? Now lets say that G-d decided to take all those souls and create them into a nation…a nation where their children would naturally have that propensity for G-dliness. Could you accept that G-d may have done this? Is it that outrageous to think? If you expand on that logic, that is what it says about the Jewish people. THey have a natural propensity for holiness, and all the extra blessings that go along with that (although they can use these blessings to become more evil that most too, G-d forbid). And again, the most important fact is that this blessing from G-d is supposed to be used to become a better person, and to help all people in the world, not for arrogance and power. And I think historically, Jews have proven themselves as a whole, to be some of the most good moral people you’ll come across (og course there are exceptions).
BTW, according to your logic, me, is the idea that only certain people can be born kohanim, and only their children can be kohanim racist? These kohanim cant marry certain women no matter what, and they get special preference and duties that no one else does. They are more holy than other Jews, and must maintain a higher standard of purity. How do you explain this?
Me,
When a person goes out of the way to find faults at a group that he opposes when they do not reflect reality it may have to do with an irrational hatred (whether to the person or to the ideas). When one tries to convince a nk that he is wrong i would find real ways to find fault with that person without the need to resort to irrational claims at him.
2) like lumping Goldstein to chabad is an irrational non sequitor, which results from an irrational urge to create some fault when none exits.
You accuse chabad for goldstein because they have higher “Racial tensions”? What are you smoking? (sorry) this is irrational hatred.
3) likewise with music: i can go on record to say that just like they will dislike music by a non jew so too they will dislike music by a jew who is unethical or and non frum etc.
4) Tanya: “no redeeming values….”? Where are you quoting from? There is no such wording in Tanya.
In fact, Tanya is not speaking about the positive outcome that may ultimately result even to non jews when they may merit a level of olam haboh when the time arrives, which comes through the observance of the 7 mitzvos. And obviously the Alter Rebbe speaks at length about the redeeming value of a mitzvah at length in tanya! He is obviously talking about the gentile prior to his performance of the 7 noahide laws.
Atr the end of the say, srrry to be blunt, you are a bit confused and mixed up and certainly lack clarity when you lump and make a cholent of different issues.
When a Jew knows the exclusiviseness of his existence it does not negate the idea that he knows that there is redeeming value to all creatures of Hashem and especially to human bveings who performs G-d will and the end brings G-dliness to the world which is G-d’s will and plan at the end of the day.
Your quotations of the slaves and other things like that are within that perspective: That they will also shar a piece of the pie but yes, there is a higher level of g-dliness that will be shared by the children of Hashem, the Jewish people and in that sense they will be “slaves” not in the literal sense and no jew will need or enjoy “enslaving” another in the literal sense of the word.
Get out of your box and start looking at the texts and works within a different language and lexicon:
Good and bad, relative to the revelation of G-dliness and all terms are measured up against this background.
Shalom
Just a thought- take any given statement, subsitute “German” (Or “Muslim”) for “Jew” and “Jew” for “non-Jew, Gentile, goy, etc.” if the statement makes you uncomfortable in its redacted version, maybe it’s racist.
(Although I agree with Lamm that choseness means a spiritual vocation, not racial superiority).
“…He is obviously talking about the gentile prior to his performance of the 7 noahide laws.”
Umm, no he’s not, it says “Any good”…
see here, for fuller explanation, which are not MY words:
http://www.sichosinenglish.org/books/letters-rebbe-1/53.htm
Regarding the music AGAIN, I hope that you perhaps never knew this, but the facts are, every chabad rabbi that I talked to, or that my friends talked to, said that non-jewsh music is PROHIBBETED, no matter how clean, no matter how beautiful. The truth is, that someone who subscribes to chabad-chassidic views, would much rather his son listen to a song composed that are anti-religious, and was composed by a jew. then the must beautiful and clean symphony that was composed by non-jew. because it from “klippa” and the “sitra achra” “the other side; evil.” are you gonna deny this?
and God pitty the son, who dare ask his father why so much hatred, most lubavitch fathers would will BEAT THE HELL OUT OF HIM, (as they are so fond of doing). That how a cult maintains itself.
The fact is, before the rise of chassidus, Judaism did not have ANYTHING to hide, it wasn’t offensive to ANYONE… it might of been offensive to another religion, but it didn’t say that your less of a person, that your a lowly animal, just because of who your mother is…
Regarding racial tensions, when ever people with the true chabad or a chasidic philosophy, are involved it’s never a “one sided thing.” They don’t their neighbors as being as HUMAN as they are.
is this not in line with chassidus:
they are governed by “alien force”
they do not experienced Devine Providence because they are so LOW…
they’re soul emanate from evil, and therefore they are evil: so are so COARSE that any good that they DO DO is only to promote their OWN HONOR.
where as a JEW, has a soul that’s entirely Good, and Holy.
Quite with apologetics! Stop with compartmentalizing… either you BELIEVE IT or NOT!.. besides why are you trying to come up with apologetics, the author of the Tanya didn’t, REMEMBER??? he just smiled.
Shalom, again, we already went through this, and you AGREED with me, that you dissagree with hassidus and the Tanya.
I ask you, that since the tanya was written, and since hassidic philosophy has been disseminated has it caused more LOVE among Jews, or hatred???
Never mind among jews and non-jews.
what did the torah mean when it said “Do not add, and do not subtract”?
“First of all, as I’ve already mentioned, there is a kabbalistic moqor, who say that non-jews who convert are really in fact jews (with jewish souls) who have “rediscovered themselves.”…”
Yes, and why was this mental gymnastic created? Because of the logic trap created by the racist belief expressed in Tanya that non-Jews only have an animal soul. Uh-oh, now how do we explain how converts fit into that two-soul model? See the above silliness.
RIGHHHT!…
and asside from taken a way all the beauty of the act of conversion, and also saying that there is no free-will, we are just governed by luck, and different FORCES!.. it shows some great compartmentalization.
Look… these guys were going through hell, at the hands of the gentiles at the time, . The more they were forced to close in on themselves, to withdraw into the imposed confines of the ghetto, the more they tended to emphasize Israel’s difference from the cruel gentile without. only THEN did thier suffering become intelligible and bearable.” as Ed, and The Encyclopedia Judaica..
However were in 2007, and if jews really are here to create a better world, and to spread ETHICAL Monotheism then it’s about time, Judaism, as whole condemns these ideas TO HELL.
They cannot be traced back to the mesora so… why defend them?
The idea that there are different levels of souls, I believe is Neoplatonism. I know there are many different Hebrew words for “soul,” so I might be wrong. We are not uncomfortable with the fact that Islam & Christianity were influenced by neoplatonism- just when it’s us. In Islamic philosophy, the “animal soul” is the “nafs” (a cognate of nefesh), which corresponds roughly to Freud’s Id. This whole business of a hierarchy of souls and emanations sounds a lot to me like Hellenism. Whoops- that’s gentile- so the tanya can’t possibly be influenced by impure non-Jewish sources 🙂
there is no point going back and forth…but you are certainly being dishonest to say the ;east if you want to deny great sages who were the forerunners of the suprarationalist thought in judaism: you corrupt nachmainedes, rabbnu bachya and many others. Likewise you deny the numerous statements in the talmud that are understood like the school of the supra rational line. furthermore numerous statements in the talmud scoff at the rationalists and at judaism being perceived as such… and of course the cold analysis of fact tells you that the followers of the rational camp have left judaism in the past 200 hundreds of years…and those suprarationalists are the ones who hold the flame…
Yochanan, I still believe that Plato, who learned from socrates, who was a member of the pythagorean cult, got these ideas from Judaism. Josephus quotes Hermippus of Smyrna, who claims that Pythagorus learned from the Jews a lot of his wisdom, and this probably included those ideas that dealt with the soul and the afterlife.
Me, I have to ask you, if you are so sure that your interpretation of the Tanya is correct, then why was the rebbe so concerned for the physical and spiritual welfare of both Jews and non jews? Why was he so concerned that they fulfill the sheva mitzvos to their fullest and merit olam haba if, as you claim, chabad beleives jews are from an alien source, and are only evil etc. Did you know that the rebbe encouraged non jews to not just follow the seven noahide laws? He encouraged non jews to follow almost every mitzvah that halacha would allow for them including tzniut(exceptions being shabbos and other mitzvos set aside only for the jewish people). He said that the sheva mitzvos were only a start.
Me, for as much as you accuse chabad for having immoral, evil beliefs, I say just look at the rebbe, and see if you find any of these accusations to be true. He exemplified the teachings of the tanya and chassidus. And we see he helped and showed so much kindness to non jews, more than most people in the world do, and he was greatly concerned for their physcial and spiritual well being. Thats all that matters. If the tanya produces a man like the rebbe, then I say every person in the world should be reading the tanya.
Isn’t it a funny paradox how this “anti-racism”-blog demonstrates outright racism in its very agenda of bashing Chabad?
And like most racists it stoops to lies and ignorance. Shmaryah argued that the qualification of the passage in Tanya – {which as has been piointed out is a quote from the Gmara in Baba Batra and from Etz Chaim by R. Chaim Vital (not ibn Atar!) citing the teachings of R. Isaac Luria, and is cited in many other mystical works as well,thus take it up with them} – is
a) a recent addendum
b) is based only on R. Hilel of Paritsh
c)no Rebbe ever said it.
A poster gave you the precise wording of that qualification, but none of you guys knew how to read it. There are 2 references given there, not one. The first is Siddur im Dach, which are the teachings of the author of the Tanya himself, as recorded by his son and successor. The second reference is to a work (Likute Beurim – cmmenaries on a work of the second Rebbe) by R. Hilel.
The qualification, therefore goes back to the Tanya itself.
Moreover, these references were provided by the last Lubavitcher rebbe in his comments on Tanya, of which the translator of the bi-lingual edition was unaware.
Next time check your sources, and at the very least learn how to read them.
Shalom: You may be 100% correct regarding the soul and the afterlife per se. It is clear from their writings that Plato and Aristotle were closet monotheists. They gave a nod to paganism now and then because Socrates was impelled to drink hemlock due to impiety, amoung other charges.
However, this business of emanations comes later than the Classical period. It starts with Plotoinus and runs through the Greco-Roman Hellenistic philosophers. Basically they tried to square the circle, by reconciling Plato’s transcendence with Aristotle’s immenence. They did this through a series of emanations, that connects the material world to the spiritual world, like layers of an onion.
To the best of my knowledge, there is nothing inherently avodah-zara-ish about that. Ibn Gavirol, for example, found it attractive. However, we owe an intellectual debt to the gentiles, just as they owe one to us.
When influence is acknowledged, one can filter out the bad and keep the good. When influence is denied (as in “in denial”) whatever already made it into fortress gets guarded with dear life- be it good or bad. That is why I am for open intellectual honesty.
In that spirit- thanks for your reply.
“truth” –
1. Hillel Paritcher wrote his OWN commentary to the Mittler Rebbe’s work. It is HILLEL PARITCHER’s view that has been quoted, not the Mittler Rebbe.
2. The Siddur im Dach is written by the Mittler Rebbe, not the Ba’al HaTanya, and the remark there in no way changes what the Ba’al HaTanya himself wrote.
3. The exact quote from Siddur im Dach does not support what you write.
Again:
“It should be noted that among the nations of the world there are also to be found those whose souls are derived from kelipat nogah. Called “the pious ones of the nations of the world,” these righteous individuals are benevolent not out of selfish motives but out of a genuine concern for their fellow.”
This means two things:
1. There are rare individuals who have souls that come from a neutral place, rather than from an evil place.
2. Your average non-Jew (and almost every other non-Jew) has a soul that comes from evil.
I’ve learned Tanya from many different Chabad rabbis. This is exactly how each explained this disturbing part of the Tanya.
Further, the quote, which you say is from a gemara, is taken by the Ba’al HaTanya and its meaning is transformed by him, just as the idea that a tzaddil is 100% perfect and righteous and free from sin is not the meaning of the word tzaddik as used in the gemara.
“there is no point going back and forth…but you are certainly being dishonest to say the ;east if you want to deny great sages who were the forerunners of the suprarationalist thought in judaism:…”
I think there’s been a misunderstanding… Grant it, I’m not the biggest scholar.. but when at look back at jewish history, the whole point of debate was individuals come to rational, TANGIBLE reasonable conclusion. Judaism does not go based on faith alone: but on proof; throughout the years there has been huge debate over things like Halacha, and it’s practical application. These were the debates between Hillel and Shamai. Right? they did argue over THEOLOGY… that was a given.
Now if someone who really cares about why there is so much infighting among jews, to the point where the most pious among each sect, believes that the OTHER is practicing THE WRONG RELIGION. Right? because I don’t know if you know this… but matters HAVE come to such a point!
Now let me illustrate, let me tell you what I think are the dynamics of infighting:
Judaism, is purported to be based on a mesora, right? A father-to-son, passed-down chain of teachings. Orthodox judaism, believes that there is Written Law… and the Oral Law. Okay now let’s take that as a given. In the Torah it says: do not add to it, and do not subtract.” It also says “Do not cut yourself off”… which the rabbi’s interpret it as “do nut cut yourself off, into sects.” Right?… right. The torah also commands, an absolute standard, where if somebody plays around with it, we are obligated to CORRECT HIM! Right, this is not sinas chinam, quite the contrary!, unless you disagree with what the Torah says. Now, given that, what does it take for there to be splits among RELIGEOUS jews, indeed, again, what are the dynamics that set off INFIGHTING?…
It’s interesting that in a recent chabad news article, where they were saying the story about Yoel Khan:
and someone commented, the following:
12. This is “Achdus”
1/24/2007 3:19:07 PM
You would think that after a kinnus achdus there would be attempts at achdus, but NO, now we have this zevel
He was making a reference of course to this “achdus gathering” that they had in israel.. where a bunch of lubavitch rabbi’s decided to COME TOGETHER, and finally work things out;.. the whole purpoted awesomeness about this that there was supposedly people from both camps; both the misshichists and the non-meshchists… Very well, so they finally come together! now of course there a good few rabbi’s who were entirely against this “what do you mean coming together?.. How can you even TALK TO such people?… In middle of the whole thing they had to evacuate, why? Because someone set off some noxious fumes.. well, they didn’t know if they were noxious or not.. and that’s why they left.
very well, so there where some people there who PLEDGED ALLIGENCE to a certain philosophy… and did not care about this stupid thing called “achdus”!
and then we had Yoel Khan, this chabad Theologian.. who said that anyone who writes “shli’ta” (an acrynon denoting denoting that a person has passed away) after the rebbe’s name rebbe is a heretic:
Getting back to this person comment:
Now of course he didn’t bother to think deeper in to the matter; and if I were to ask him “if you really care about achdus, are you willing to let go off some YOUR philosophy, in order see your fellow jew as equal. I’m pretty sure I know what this guys answer would be.
We have to THINK (yes THINK, no matter how much this particlular exercise is discouraged in your community) Matters have come to such a point, where in Lakewood it’s tottaly cool to trash the last lubavitch rebbe, in lubavitch it’s tottaly cool to make toilet humor about Rav Shach… within lubavitch there are those that beleive that anyone who says the rebbe is not alive, (in the body), is commiting a great SIN. Rav Elyashiv said that messianist are heretics and not to be talked to.
Never mind the brute fighting among OTHER chassidic sects…
It is clear that every time we have a group of people pledging allegiance to MEN, and to new philosophies, we get this terrible infightings.
THIS, I’m SURE!, is why the torah says do not ADD, and do not subtract. THIS, is what Judaism was supposed to be.
When I say Rational Judaism, I meant Normalitive Judaism, the Judaism how it’s always been, judaism that says “ALL MEN ARE CREATED EQUAL”.. and are to be judged by THE FRUIT OFF THIER DEEDS, and not because of who their mothers were.
If certain things cannot be traced back into the mesora, then it’s not part of it. A barameter is Empirical Evidence that ever since these NEW philosophes came on to the scene, there’s been ENORMOUS INFIGHTING and HATRED among jews. and never mind among jews, and non-jews.
So again, as i’ve said BEFORE, at the end of the day, you have to ask yourself: what to defend: Man or Truth.
Indeed, it was Solomon who said: “there is not ONE MAN on Earth, who has not erred.”
Me you make a lot of good points. And I know the rebbe if he saw what was going on would be very upset with the lack of achdus today. However I feel that there has always been infighting among the jewish people, starting with the brothers selling yosef and arguing over it afterward. I dont think you can blame the rise of the chassidic movement for infighting amongst jews today. We’d still have problems with reform fighting conservative, fighting MO, fighting charedi, fighting atheistic jews. And it was the same way back when the second temple was destroyed; we had the zealots fighting the perushim, fighting the tzeddukim, fighting the secricin, fighting the essenes. Again, its not the torah that causes this, but rather our focus today on laws bein adam lemakom (between man and G-d), rather than bein adam lechaveiro (between man and man) when they should both be equally emphasized, as they are equally important. A huge part of chassidus, as well as the mussar movement, was to improve our behavior towards each other. Unfortunately, we as a people have a way of missing the point of those works or not reading them at all, and forgetting the most important comandment of loving your neighbor as yourself. We seem to maximize our ability to fulfill mitzvos between man and G-d. Its time that the Jewish world also begin maximizing our love for each other and for every human being, regardless of beliefs. That would bring moshiach faster than anything.
Yochanan, your insights are brilliant, and I appreciate them.
Shmarya, yours as well.
Sholom, you should know, that your probably a lone voice amongst your people. Everybody else would have probably dimissed me a stupid “misnaggid” and someone who hates lubavitch. I cannot “racist against lubavitch” For Lubavitch is only a philosophy, an ideology… NOT A PEOPLE.
I’m a seeker of Truth, and if the glove fits the hand, then it fits the hand.
Yes, there has been “infighting” among jews, in the times of the temple, however I’m talking about Orthodoxy itself, the one that says that we have to except both the Oral Law, and The Written Law. and that there has been a “chain-of-teachings” that we should not ADD to or SUBTRACT from.
Me: Thanks for your kind words. I also enjoy your posts.
Me, I think that this website presents the worst face of judaism. And if you have had bad experiences with judaism, then you may have been around those elements in judaism that don’t adhere to the principles of kindness, and in no way represent true judaism. I don’t think your broad negative characterization of all orthodox jews, particularly all chabad jews is fair. I have met so many wonderful jews, more than I can count. I feel you should not judge all of chabad and orthodoxy based on your personal experiences alone. There are so many wonderful chabadniks out there. And I am in no way a lone voice among chabad or the jewish people.
me,
you make lots of good points but they may not necessarily b connected with the issue under discussion.
Yes, ultimately it boils down onwhether or not we have a messora for this or that idea.
The question of whether or not Judaism is rationalist focused or suprarationalist focused.
I suggest you to look up in the original sources ou will be surprised to see many of our sages that point to the suprarationalist angle.
Yes, of course judaism begins with using all of our faculties to the usage of the enhancement of mankind and the world at large. But then it comes a point where mankind sees it’s fallibility andsurrenders to the transcdental g-d which in turn makes Himself immanenet in the world etc.
Yes, we must not add but we must also see not to subtract. When onemakes measures not to subtract it perhaps may not be considered “adding”; merely a measure not to subtract! Yes, and we should respect all others who have their own measures how to ensure that they do not subtract their connection with G-d and also help mankind in general jews and non jews (in their own different unique ways) find their connection with g-d through 613 and 7 mitzvot and reach the level of ollam habah!
when they say achdus, they mean achdus their way and under their tutelage.
when they themselves are possul, achdus under them is phoney, meaningless and truly undesirable.
Although the term “fighting” has been used for all of the machlokets between Meshichist/Ant-meshichits, Chasidic – Misnagid, Satmear – Chabad, MO – Conservative, etc. etc. etc. I believe there is an aspect to this that is very healthy, and that is TARBUT HA’MACHLOKET!!! This is perhaps what makes the Jewish people so unqiue, that fact that we’re so adament about searching for the truth, searching for the best way to serve hashem. The name “YISRAEL” may mean “struggle with hashem”. We have to be careful about calling eachother heretics, that’s when we cross the line, but even this is an example of tarbut hamachloket. When we use the term heretic, do we really mean it? Perhaps it’s just that we feel so passionate that our approach is the right approach, and we use these terms as a way of expressing that. Many of the people who scream “achdus, achdus, achdus” or “ahavas yisrael” don’t appreciate the beauty of TARBUT HA’MACHLOKET, the culture of MACHLOKET which in my opinion is one of the best parts of being Jewish…
I assure you, sholom, that I have felt THE BRUNT of chabad, more then anyone here… Shmarya, does an awesome service to us all. And he’s never lied once. from all that I’ve read.
But let’s get back to the topic hand, shall we.
StormFront, The KKK, and David Duke’s accusations against jews hold no-water whatsover untill of course it comes to The Tanya and Chassidus.
The Talmud itself makes the brilliant observation “That every Lie, even THE GREATEST lie, most have SOME Truth to it, otherwise it would cease to Exist”
Chassidus, and chabad-chassidus in particular dehumanizes the non jew indeed.
Sholom, I asked you before… putting asside the moral vs. ammoral aspect of this discussion, because this idea has been so indoctranated into some people minds that it should be disproven rationaly:
I asked you to look at the case of Wesley Autrey, a man, who recentley jumped in infront of a speeding train, and did know how deep the drain system was, and could of been easily CRUSHED TO DEATH, never the less, not thinking jumped in to take the chance of perhaps saving the other persons life.
You wrote:
“Me, I feel that the claims that lubavitch doesn’t beleive that non jews have olam haba, and that non jews dont have klipa noga has been disproven. So I don’t think there is any problem with there being selfless acts by non jews. I don’t think the subway hero saved that person for any reason except that it was the right thing to do i.e. lishmah. So I believe that he almost definitely has a nefesh habehames that stems from klipa noga, and I believe he had no thought of honor or reward when he saved that person…”
That’s the thing that’s not what the tanya, and chabad chassidus says. It states exlicitly that non jews are so coarse and low, “that ANY GOOD they do, is only to promote their own honor.”
I also pointed that unlike Miamonedes, Nachmanides, and the gemara, that says that ANY gentile, if he so chooses, can rise to HIGHTS of the COHEN GODAL! If he adheres the basic morality and studeis those certain parts that are for him/her and takes it that its from the reavealing-transcendent God of Israel.
And as I’ve pointed out to you, and I have directed to the letters and sichos of the lubavitcher. Where he makes it clear that all jews, no matter how ammoral and bad they were in THIS world, they will inevitably inhererent the world to come, and True Blessedness, so that means that according to him, mother Theresa is now enjoing a much lesser gan eden then BUGSEY SEAGAL!
If you don’t want StormFront, the KKK, and David Duke, the palistinians to have an arguement… and what’s more, if we really wanna spread ETHICAL MONOTHEISM, to the world, then we are selves have to Ethical we most immeidiatly condemn those ideas… no matter who had them.
Let them not have an aurgument, and LET US LIVE IN PEACE, ONCE AND FOR ALL.
Let us not adhere to doctrines, that are as hatefull and bigoted as those making the accusations.
Thank you.
I assure you, sholom, that I have felt THE BRUNT of chabad, more then anyone here… Shmarya, does an awesome service to us all. And he’s never lied once. from all that I’ve read.
But let’s get back to the topic hand, shall we.
StormFront, The KKK, and David Duke’s accusations against jews hold no-water whatsover untill of course it comes to The Tanya and Chassidus.
The Talmud itself makes the brilliant observation “That every Lie, even THE GREATEST lie, most have SOME Truth to it, otherwise it would cease to Exist”
Chassidus, and chabad-chassidus in particular dehumanizes the gentile indeed.
Sholom, I asked you before… putting asside the moral vs. ammoral aspect of this discussion, because this idea has been so indoctranated into some people minds that it should be disproven rationaly:
I asked you to look at the case of Wesley Autrey, a man, who recentley jumped in infront of a speeding train, and did know how deep the drain system was, and could of been easily CRUSHED TO DEATH, never the less, not thinking jumped in to take the chance of perhaps saving the other persons life.
You wrote:
“Me, I feel that the claims that lubavitch doesn’t beleive that non jews have olam haba, and that non jews dont have klipa noga has been disproven. So I don’t think there is any problem with there being selfless acts by non jews. I don’t think the subway hero saved that person for any reason except that it was the right thing to do i.e. lishmah. So I believe that he almost definitely has a nefesh habehames that stems from klipa noga, and I believe he had no thought of honor or reward when he saved that person…”
That’s the thing that’s not what the tanya, and chabad chassidus says. It states exlicitly that non jews are so coarse and low, “that ANY GOOD they do, is only to promote their own honor.”
I also pointed that unlike Miamonedes, Nachmanides, and the gemara, that says that ANY gentile, if he so chooses, can rise to HIGHTS of the COHEN GODAL! If he adheres the basic morality and studeis those certain parts that are for him/her and takes it that its from the reavealing-transcendent God of Israel.
And as I’ve pointed out to you, and I have directed to the letters and sichos of the lubavitcher. Where he makes it clear that all jews, no matter how ammoral and bad they were in THIS world, they will inevitably inhererent the world to come, and True Blessedness, so that means that according to him, mother Theresa is now enjoing a much lesser gan eden then BUGSEY SEAGAL!
If you don’t want StormFront, the KKK, and David Duke, the palistinians to have an arguement… and what’s more, if we really wanna spread ETHICAL MONOTHEISM, to the world, then we are selves have to Ethical we most immeidiatly condemn those ideas… no matter who had them.
Let them not have an aurgument, and LET US LIVE IN PEACE, ONCE AND FOR ALL.
Let us not adhere to doctrines, that are as hatefull and bigoted as those making the accusations.
Thank you.
Ben Qur’ha,
right on.
“Let them not have an argument, and LET US LIVE IN PEACE, ONCE AND FOR ALL.”
I meant to write “let us not GIVE THEM an argument.”
To say shmarya has never lied once is a bit of a stretch. Maybe he hasn’t lied on purpose, but he gets his facts wrong now and then.
Again Me, I think it has been established that according to the tanya, some non jews have klipa noga. I wish I was more fluent in the tanya, but I know that all people have, in addition to their nefesh habahames, something called a nefesh hasichlus; the intellectual soul. This aspect of both Jews and non Jews is the intellectual part of the mind that can do something because it is logical, and it is this part of the mind that can do good because it logically makes sense.
As to your idea that all israel even busy segal, are above mother theresa, this is not true. There are jews who can lose their olam haba. And the rebbe, who believed in reincarnation, would hold that an evil person would have to reincarnate back into this world if their soul hasn’t reached perfection i.e. gan eden is only temporary for almost everyone, and then we must come back to earth to continue our attempt at perfection. So someone like bugsy segal, would probably suffer through hell and then have to reincarnate back into this world without passing through gan eden. The idea is that in the end, every jew (and I believe every non jew) will do full teshuva and they will merit holiness and closeness to hashem. But definitely mother theresa is in a higher place than Bugsy.
Shalom –
What you just wrote contradicts what the Rebbe himself wrote. Your explanation is very nice – but it is NOT what Chabad theoolgy says.
What contradicts what the rebbe wrote? What does chabad theology say?
nefeh, neshama, ruach, behemit, sichlit, higher, lower realms.
ascent and descents of the souls, under the throne, around the throne, jew, gentile, more, less, all this arithmetic gymnastic, including but not exclusive to the tanya makes me sick. it is meaningless sorcery. i don’t buy any of that nonsense of rabbis dividing souls in fractions and attributing qualities to each. that’s none of chochma, binah or daat. it does not add honor to judaism, has no foundation in either intellect or revelation and is hardly good for attracting fools and scoundrels by telling them that they are better than others. a cheap “snow job” mipi hagvuro.
If there were prophets who performed supernatural wonders, then that information might still be around. I think that its very possible that along with the oral tradition was passed knowledge of the mroe esoteric aspects of torah.
And shmarya I’m still waiting for an answer.
Here is the Rebbe saying that without a “spark” of good enclosed in the eveil that is the gentile soul, that soul would not be able to exist. He then explains – based on the Tzemach Tzedek and the Rashab – that non-Jews have no sense of the lone spark of good and it doees not effect how they act or think:
Only the extremely rare non-Jew has a soul from klipat noga. The rest, 99.9%, are all from evil.
By contrast, Jews – even Bugsy Siegel, Meyer Lansky and the serial killer down the street – all have sould the come from holiness.
And, again, Bugsy, et al, have a place in the world to come. It might not be a good place, but it is a place, nonetheless. By contrast, at best, only the holiest of gentiles, the .0001%, have a place in the world to come.
That is Chabad theology.
“By contrast, Jews – even Bugsy Siegel, Meyer Lansky and the serial killer down the street – all have sould the come from holiness.”
Sweet! I can eat all the pork I want and I’m saved by my ethnicity!
And my non-Jew friends can rape, rob, and murder, because it doesn’t matter what they do!
Truly Hashem is all merciful! Yechi H’Melech yada yada yad!
By contrast, at best, only the holiest of gentiles, the .0001%, have a place in the world to come.
first allow me to wish you a heartfelt yasher koach.
apart from that reb shmarya
“we expect them”, indeed, “we want them to remain wicked”. “we do not want them to become good”. lest it diminish from our jewel (tachshit) personalities.
give me a break.
if all our romance with G-d the qadosh barukh hu, hinges on keeping them sinning (even when they do good) we are in bad shape. the worse part is, that we are so busy incriminating the rest of the world, we end up really believing that
we are good.
let me tell you, the picture from within the orthodox community, is rather dim.
the reform movement left nothing in judaism, while the conservatives are busy shedding whatever precious they had left. sad, sad.
By contrast, at best, only the holiest of gentiles, the .0001%, have a place in the world to come.
first allow me to wish you a heartfelt yasher koach.
apart from that reb shmarya
“we expect them”, indeed, “we want them to remain wicked”. “we do not want them to become good”. lest it diminish from our jewel (tachshit) personalities.
give me a break.
if all our romance with G-d the qadosh barukh hu, hinges on keeping them sinning (even when they do good) we are in bad shape. the worse part is, that we are so busy incriminating the rest of the world, we end up really believing that
we are good.
let me tell you, the picture from within the orthodox community, is rather dim.
the reform movement left nothing in judaism, while the conservatives are busy shedding whatever precious they had left. sad, sad.
I think you are mistaken shmarya. I have learned a number of kabbalistic texts about reincarnation, some even written by lubavitchers, and bugsy segal is not in gan eden. And you say that only .0001% of non jews have olam haba? Just because they dont have klipa noga doesn’t mean they can’t merit olam haba. Furthermore, hashem has to repay a person for all the good they do, whether in this world or the next. So clearly merit is being stored up for non jews for all the good they do. I would say that anyone who we would call “moral” among the christians, moslems, and other monotheistic religions merits olam haba. And for those who don’t, there is reincarnation back into this world to try to fix things so they can merit olam haba the next time.
I think you are mistaken shmarya. I have learned a number of kabbalistic texts about reincarnation, some even written by lubavitchers, and bugsy segal is not in gan eden. And you say that only .0001% of non jews have olam haba? Just because they dont have klipa noga doesn’t mean they can’t merit olam haba. Furthermore, hashem has to repay a person for all the good they do, whether in this world or the next. So clearly merit is being stored up for non jews for all the good they do. I would say that anyone who we would call “moral” among the christians, moslems, and other monotheistic religions merits olam haba. And for those who don’t, there is reincarnation back into this world to try to fix things so they can merit olam haba the next time.
“If there were prophets who performed supernatural wonders, then that information might still be around. I think that its very possible that along with the oral tradition was passed knowledge of the mroe esoteric aspects of torah.”
Reb Shalom
According to our torah, all prophets miracles were performed by the holy one blessed be he. The prophets were nothing but instruments in the hand of the qadosh barukh hu.
In fact, the torah was not comfortable with such as Eliezer, Yiftah Hagiladi and even Eliahu with the prophets of Baal when they placed requests from G-d asking:
a-vehaya hanaara – Eliezer
b-a neder to sacrifice the first to come out towards him upon his return- Yiftah
c-accept the olah of Eliahu.
Eliezer and Eliahu were granted their wishes, but not from some esoteric knowledge and formulas of add 0.25 neshama to 1.37 yechida, subtract 0.886 ruach, and boom the sacrifice is burned.
Shalom –
It works like this. Only the hasidei umot haolam can possibly merit olam haba. By definition, that is a very small group. The idea is gentiles are almost without exception rewarded in this world for whatever good they do. Occasionally, that reward may be transferred, so to speak, to their decendants. Only the extremely rare hasideai umot haolam have olam haba.
What I just wrote is the best case scenario. Worse case is no gentile has olam haba and all reward is in the here and now only.
As for Bugsy, et al, I’m not wrong, at least with regard to Chaabd theology/ Only the worst of apostates, minim, and moserim don’t get olam haba. They suffer in gehinnom until the final judgement, after which they dissolve into nothingness, so to speak.
qabbalah in the hands of fools. I do not think that there is any kosher qabbalah in the world:
http:// http://www.usajewish.com/ downloads/ vicki-devil-worship. HTML
Shmarya, not according to the last lubavitcher rebbe, according to him, ALL JEWS, no matter how bad, will inevitably inherit olam haba.
I will supply you with the link soon…
also since most, if not all, the world, are no longer polytheistic pagans.. in the biblical sense, they might already, most of them, if they are good, and moral. can fit in miamonedes and nachmanides, and the gemmara qualification.
But the most important thing is that they all, that EVERONE has the ability to actively CHOOSE, not that they are given low, coarse, and evil source. and that they are governed by an “alien force”.. and are lesser, subhuman creatures.
Few outsider points from a troller:
rac·ism /ˈreɪsɪzəm/ Pronunciation Key – Show Spelled Pronunciation[rey-siz-uhm] Pronunciation Key – Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun 1. a belief or doctrine that inherent differences among the various human races determine cultural or individual achievement, usually involving the idea that one’s own race is superior and has the right to rule others.
From my experience, Chabad most certainly IS racist, according to this definition. As a white Jew, I feel qualified to make this observation. No black lasted long in the congregation during my years with Chabad. That is the sad RACIST truth.
However, I see that the word “racist” is misused throughout this entire thread (when dealing with the general subject of how Jews see themselves vs non-Jews). Afterall, the JEWS are definitely NOT a race of people. While born Jews may have a racial compenent (through blood), anyone can join the house of Israel. Anyone can marry a “blacker than black” Jew, provided he/she is Jewish according to halakha. So this has (or should have) nothing to do with race.
Another point: I don’t remember who above made the point. However, I really wish you would take your made-up mystical reason (for intermarriage) and toss it in the garbage can. Let’s stop assigning reasons to the commandments…okay? It’s just too dangerous. Please bury your klip noga.
PS: Reincarnation is bubba meisas. See Saadiah Gaon.
PSS: If you want to know the real scoop on Talmudic Judaism before the corruption of the Zohar, study RAMBAM without commentary.
Have a great week!
Just trolling
Just because doesn’t feel right doesn’t mean it’s wrong. Most non-Jews and Jews are not capable of doing a good deed lishmah. Enough apologetics. Try to understand what it means with your kop. When someone is doing something good, why is he doing it? From least righteous to most righteous: 1) because he can draw some benefit from it, 2) because he can glorify himself in others’ eyes, 3) because he can glorify himself in his own eyes, 4) because he feels compassion to the person in trouble, his heart weeps, and he wants to rectify that. So what? The last reason is not doing a good deed lishmah. Some people are born with empathy. When they see a hungry kitten, they almost literally feel pain and will do anything to rectify that pain. Why does this reaction that they experience makes them a good person? A good person is someone who understands (not feels) why doing something is right and important and then does it.
Before judging something, you should try to understand its essence. Am I saying that all Jews are capable of doing a good deed because of understanding it? No! Most cannot. Understanding why you cannot kill a human being or help another a human being means knowing consciously that this is what G-d wants, through Torah (a heretic that understands it through some other way doesn’t really understand it properlu). Such a thing is possible only for frum Jews whose neshamah is on the level of conscious awareness of Hashem being the only source of everything and for bnei Noach, al pi Rambam. Question closed.
But even if this particular piece of Chabad philosophy was trully racist: what’s the big deal? Alter Rebbe lived in Russia in times when most Russians behaved themselves like vildeh chayos, especially towards Jews. I was born and raised in Russia — many of them still do. Think of your rednecks to the power of ten. It made total sense for him that their souls derived from klipah. Even if you believed that this was racist, it doesn’t mean that the whole Chabad philosophy is racist. It only means that he made a mistake about a single point (which I still believe he hasn’t — see above). Kabbalah says the same thing: yidden are different from medaber; they are not human, they are above human, being part of G-d. Except any human can join ranks of this G-dly people etc.
Finally, yeah, a lot of Chabadniks are racist. A lot of them went to watch Borat too and listen to rap. So what? How does this relate to what Chabad philosophy is? Show me anything that the Rebbe said about Black people (or any other race) being worse than whites. I will tell you this: one time the Rebbe was asked if it’s appropriate for a Jew to marry a converted black Jew. The Rebbe answered: “Torah is written in black-and-white”. During the riots in CH, when the mayor asked him to bless two peoples, the Rebbe answered: “We are one people under one administration and under one G-d.”
Just because some Chabadniks base their outlook to Blacks based on the latter’s behavior in CH (or any other ghetto) doesn’t mean racism is a part of Chabad philosophy. Any group that is a little secluded from the society will have members that are a little behind in advances in social thought. I want you to show me any young (under 35) Chabad shliach who is racist.
Finally, to the last poster: stop being such a misnaged. Actually study the stuff before saying such shtus. Every single branch of Jews (except Yemmenites) accepts Kabbalah. In fact, Vilna Gaon (who was not a great friend of Chassidim) said that a rabbi cannot pasken if he doesn’t know Kabbalah. So, stop speaking narrishkeit. Chassidus is not just some mystical mumbo-jumbo. It uses Kabbalah to reveal the essence of yiddishkeit. If you think you’re such a frum yid, ask yourself this question: when was the last time you thought about Hashem? What is Torah for you? If you answered “a way of life”, you’re wrong…
“a belief or doctrine that inherent differences among the various human races determine cultural or individual achievement, usually involving the idea that one’s own race is superior and has the right to rule others.”
First of all, it doesn’t say anywhere that Jews should rule over goyim. Except maybe after coming of Moshiach, which is a principle of Rambam.
Secondly, it is a Jewish, not Chabad, idea that Jews are inherently closer to Hashem and are intrinsically different from goyim. I don’t know which version of yiddishkeit you learned, but according to Halachah, if a Jew and a non-Jew are drowning, you have to say the Jew — because he is keeping mitzvos in this world, fulfilling the ultimate purpose of the world’s creation, while a non-Jew is just keeping the order of the world. Now, any non-Jew can become a Jew, just like any nurse can become a doctor. But don’t say that there is no difference between a Jew and a goy. (Of course, this has nothing to do with actual biological race — it’s all about a Jewish neshamah.) A goy can still be close to G-d by fulfilling his role in this world, and that role is also very important. But he will never be as close as a Jew is. Tradeoff: either you’re close to Hashem, or you’re enjoying this world. What if you’re a Jew and you’re enjoying this world in a way forbidden for you? Then, says Gemarrah, you’re like an insect that sucks in and doesn’t release anything, and you’re worse than the lowest goy.
Bottom line: enough with the modern liberal crap. Look at things and ideas intelligently, not emotionally. Truth is not sentimental.
By the way, Chabad didn’t make any major chidushim. It never introduced any ideas that didn’t exist in Judaism beforehand. It only emphasized certain ideas and thoughts to a degree they were not emphasized before.
If you have the chance perhaps you can listen to Likutei Amarim chapter 1 part 3 on lessonsintanya.com Rabbi Krasniaski explanation makes this matter much clearer I’m afraid this matter had been distorted by ignorance (I “struggled” with this question too)
All the best
It’s not “misunderstood.” Benny just spins it in a way that makes you feel good about it. Problem is, that way is not the way the Tanya was explained or understood previously. Benny’s spin has no historical merit.
B”H
It’s not about feeling good or not feeling good it’s about learning the Tanya and you don’t have to agree with everything that being said it is a personal journey. I find in my own life experience that this explanation is solid!
“…Problem is, that way is not the way the Tanya was explained or understood previously…”
Baruch Hasham we all have much to learn
All the best
B”H
“Benny’s spin has no historical merit.”
The Tanya is only about 200 years old, there’s a lot to be discover. Historically it was a break trough work and not without opposition from day one, the “merit” part might be written as we speak. I invite you to join us and introduce your thoughts.
All the best
So a work that views non-Jews as animals is worth religious study and devotion, and the problematic parts we simply redefine without telling anyone that we have so redefined those objectionable parts?
Please.
Be honest. Let people know what the Alter Rebbe really wrote and how Chabad understood that up until the time it needed to recruit outsiders that would be very upset by it.
Tell the truth. If people run away from Chabad, so be it.
B”H
“So a work that views non-Jews as animals…’
Please show me where does it say anywhere in Tanya or in Torah the above?
Read through the comments. It is discussed extensively.
According to the Tanya, non-Jews only have an animal soul. They do not have a Divne soul and are therefore not created in God’s image.
B”H
It is stated in every Jewish fundamental work I’ve read starting from Torah through Rambam and Tanya that G-d created 4 forms of life: Stone, Vegetable, Animal and Human Jews or Non-Jews we are all human. (Some of us might behave like animals but that also goes to described Jews and Non-Jews). As you might know in Judaism we have the concept of Rashah (wicked one).
What the Alter Rebbe explains in the Tanya at chapter 1 as nothing to do with Animal or human or even Human who behave like animals actually this discussing leading to the understanding of what a Tzadik is.
The Alter Rebbe explains that:
A. There’s a different between a Jewish soul and non-Jewish soul, not to say good or bad, better or worse just the fact that a Jewish soul is different.
This is solid truth that anyone can see, like it or don’t like it! Just ask any honest person Jew or non-Jew and he or she will tell you that this is a fact. Again we are not talking about who is better who is worse this got nothing to do with this fact (good or wicked has to do with how each of us at any point choose to express it’s soul origin but that’s a different discussion all together)
B. The Alter Rebbe explains what is this different. And the different is that only the Jewish soul “carries” an “actual” piece of G-d (sort of speak) and this has to do with its origin i.e. G-d’s brain (sort of speak) (this is a long discussion but the soul of non-Jews originate in a different level within G-d’s and do not carry an “actual” piece of the divine within them) and thus if you will a Jewish soul might be compared to the brain while non-Jewish soul might be compared to the liver.
Now, to say that the brain is superior to the liver is nonsense because they are both required (and to be in top shape) to sustain life. Or to say that the brain is superior to the foot is also dishonest because the brain without the foot “goes nowhere!”
But this is not the point of the discussion in Tanya the point is how this deference (of the Jewish soul) materialize once in this world and what can we as Jews do with this quality?
And the answer is as the Alter Rebbe goes on to explain:
Because the Jewish soul carries a piece of the divine it has the potential to act with total unity with the divine i.e. it can recognize by its nature that everything is G-dly in its source and there is no other reality but G-d and all is nullified by G-d and that includes “MY” reality and therefore nothing exist but G-d!
And when you realize that there’s no other reality but G-d including “ME, my ego” and behave accordingly then creation is transparent, then this world is Garden of Eden.
Now this is something in the origin of every Jewish soul not just the Rabbi’s and the leaders and the scholars but to the last and most ignorant of us or as the Alter Rebbe calls it Kal Shbah Kalim (light minded).
For the non-Jew this realization of “No other reality but G-d” is not in natural, this realization might be acquire through study but thus will always be external knowledge.
Now, as for the Jews soul the above is what makes us Jews. Not how long the “Peyoth” are? Or how many pages in Talmud we know? The proof is that you can have 9 Moshe and there’s no MinYan but get one more Jew, a Jew how never came to shull and never learn one prayer in his life. A Jew how eats bacon with cheese on You Kippur (G-d forbid) get that one Jew and we got a “MinYan”. This is Emmes.
And this is the Alter Rebbe’s preaching and he went to Russian Jail for 52 days for this preaching so I don’t think that being popular was his motivation. And look at us today 200 years later talking about G-dliness with our variety of opinions thanks to the Alter Rebbe.
Now going back to your claim that non-Jews are animals (G-d forbid) not only that this is a ridicules saying that have no merit in any serious discussion in Judaism but even I with my limited understanding in Torah can prove you wrong.
Noah, Noah a non-Jew and a Tzadik literally save the whole world, G-d spoke to him (never spoke to me), there’s a Torah portion after his name “Noah” there’s no portion Torah in the name of Avrahm Avinu, not in the name of Moshe Rabbenu, so what this tell you? An Animal? If he’s an animal (G-d forbid) where this leaves us?
All the best
According to the Tanya, non-Jews only have an animal soul. They do not have a Divne soul and are therefore not created in God’s image.
Which cahpter in Tanya?
Thank you
Again, read through the comments. It is discussed extensively and cited.
The rest of what you write is recent Chabad spin, not what the Alter Rebbe meant and not how Chabad taught Tanya, at least until the 1960s.
B”H
“Again, read through the comments. It is discussed extensively and cited.”
Went through the comment but couldn’t find one that discuss the actual Tanya text as it was written by the Alter Rebbe.
Your claim is very disturbing to me so I apologize for taking your time and web space but I plead with you, here is the original text show me where the Alter Rebbe write that non-Jews are animals! (G-d forbid)
Now if you can show it to me, that your claim is found in the text then I’m 100% with you and the Tanya should be never studied again.
But if it is not in the text then we should all join together and find out where this error stems from and fix it once and for all!
“The rest of what you write is recent Chabad spin, not what the Alter Rebbe meant and not how Chabad taught Tanya, at least until the 1960s.”
First if you talk about the 60’s then I wouldn’t call that recent since 50 years out of 200 can hardly be considered recent.
Second in the 60’s smoking was considered as not harmful thank G-d this changed.
Third throughout history mistake were made from Moshe hitting the rock to each one of us life. Baruch Hashem G-d gave us thinking brain to understand, learn and correct in honest way.
All the best
פרק א
ליקוטי אמרים
תניא [בספ”ג דנדה] משביעים אותו תהי צדיק ואל תהי רשע ואפי’ כל העולם כולו אומרים לך צדיק אתה היה בעיניך כרשע וצריך להבין דהא תנן [אבות פ”ב] ואל תהי רשע בפני עצמך וגם אם יהיה בעיניו כרשע ירע לבבו ויהיה עצב ולא יוכל לעבו’ ה’ בשמחה ובטוב לבב ואם לא ירע לבבו כלל מזה יכול לבוא לידי קלות ח”ו. אך הענין כי הנה מצינו בגמרא ה’ חלוקות. צדיק וטוב לו צדיק ורע לו רשע וטוב לו רשע ורע לו ובינוני. ופירשו בגמרא צדיק וטוב לו צדיק גמור צדיק ורע לו צדיק שאינו גמור וברעיא מהימנא פ’ משפטים פי’ צדיק ורע לו שהרע שבו כפוף לטוב וכו’ ובגמרא ספ”ט דברכות צדיקים יצ”ט שופטן כו’ רשעים יצה”ר שופטן בינונים זה וזה שופטן וכו’ אמר רבה כגון אנא בינוני א”ל אביי לא שביק מר חיי לכל בריה וכו’ ולהבין כל זה באר היטב וגם להבין מה שאמר איוב [ב”ב פ”א] רבש”ע בראת צדיקי’ בראת רשעי’ כו’ והא צדיק ורשע לא קאמר. וגם להבין מהות מדרגת הבינוני שבודאי אינו מחצה זכיות ומחצה עונות שא”כ איך טעה רבה בעצמו לומר שהוא בינוני ונודע דלא פסיק פומיה מגירסא עד שאפי’ מלאך המות לא היה יכול לשלוט בו ואיך היה יכול לטעות במחצה עונות ח”ו. ועוד שהרי בשעה שעושה עונות נקרא רשע גמור [ואם אח”כ עשה תשובה נקרא צדיק גמור] ואפילו העובר על איסור קל של דברי סופרים מקרי רשע כדאיתא בפ”ב דיבמות ובפ”ק דנדה ואפילו מי שיש בידו למחות ולא מיחה נק’ רשע [בפ”ו דשבועו’] וכ”ש וק”ו במבטל איזו מ”ע שאפש’ לו לקיימה כמו כל שאפשר לו לעסוק בתורה ואינו עוסק שעליו דרשו רז”ל כי דבר ה’ בזה וגו’ הכרת תכרת וגו’ ופשיטא דמקרי רשע טפי מעובר איסור דרבנן וא”כ ע”כ הבינוני אין בו אפי’ עון ביטול תורה ומש”ה טעה רבה בעצמו לומר שהוא בינוני
הגהה (ומ”ש בזוהר ח”ג ד’ רל”א כל שממועטין עונותיו וכו’ היא שאלת רב המנונא לאליהו אבל לפי תשובת אליהו שם הפי’ צדיק ורע לו הוא כמ”ש בר”מ פרשה משפטים דלעיל ושבעים פנים לתורה):
והא דאמרי’ בעלמא דמחצ’ על מחצה מקרי בינוני ורוב זכיות מקרי צדיק הוא שם המושאל לענין שכר ועונש לפי שנדון אחר רובו ומקרי צדיק בדינו מאחר שזוכה בדין אבל לענין אמיתת שם התואר והמעלה של מעלת ומדרגות חלוקות צדיקים ובינונים ארז”ל צדיקים יצ”ט שופטן שנא’ ולבי חלל בקרבי שאין לו יצה”ר כי הרגו בתענית אבל כל מי שלא הגיע למדרגה זו אף שזכיותיו מרובים על עונותיו אינו במעלת ומדרגת צדיק כלל ולכן ארז”ל במדרש ראה הקב”ה בצדיקים שהם מועטים עמד ושתלן בכל דור ודור וכו’ וכמ”ש וצדיק יסוד עולם: אך ביאור הענין על פי מ”ש הרח”ו ז”ל בשער הקדושה [ובע”ח שער נ’ פ”ב] דלכל איש ישראל אחד צדיק ואחד רשע יש שתי נשמות דכתיב ונשמות אני עשיתי שהן שתי נפשות נפש אחת מצד הקליפה וסטרא אחרא והיא המתלבשת בדם האדם להחיות הגוף וכדכתיב כי נפש הבשר בדם היא וממנה באות כל המדות רעות מארבע יסודות רעים שבה דהיינו כעס וגאוה מיסוד האש שנגבה למעלה. ותאות התענוגים מיסוד המים כי המים מצמיחים כל מיני תענוג. והוללות וליצנות והתפארות ודברים בטלים מיסוד הרוח. ועצלות ועצבות מיסוד העפר. וגם מדות טובות שבטבע כל ישראל בתולדותם כמו רחמנות וג”ח באות ממנה כי בישראל נפש זו דקליפה היא מקליפ’ נוגה שיש בה ג”כ טוב והיא מסוד עץ הדעת טוב ורע: משא”כ נפשות אומות עובדי גלולים הן משאר קליפות טמאות שאין בהן טוב כלל כמ”ש בע”ח שער מ”ט פ”ג וכל טיבו דעבדין האומות עובדי גלולים לגרמייהו עבדין וכדאיתא בגמרא ע”פ וחסד לאומים חטאת שכל צדקה וחסד שאומות עובדי גלולים עושין אינן אלא להתייהר כו’:
Here you can see the Rebbe’s explanation. He needs to resolve a question. If non-Jews souls are completely evil as it says in the Tanya, how can they exist because, without some Godliness, nothing can exist. He then goes on to expalin that there is Godliness in them, but it is minute (a spark) and hidden and non-Jews DO NOT KNOW IT IS THERE, which is why their souls are wholly evil:
You can look in Torah Or and other sources to see that only those with Divine souls are created in God’s image.
I still don’t get it, how from all the above the conclusion is that the non-Jews are Animals (G-d forbid) here again is the talked about passage from the Tanya translated to English I think it’s important to have it here so people can make their own judgment. Personally as someone who study Tanya and study the life of the Alter Rebbe I just can’t see the connection between this Kabbalistic concept and the statement that the non-Jews are Animals (G-d forbid).
Perhaps I’m missing something here and I welcomed any further discussion.
I also think that anyone a “Rabbi” or anybody else who conclude from this passage that non-Jews are animals (G-d forbid) should take a “good look” at himself/ herself.
All the best
Followed is the Tanya text translated to English,
to put things in to context in this chapter which is the opening of the Tanya the Alter Rebbe discuss the source of the human soul so we can understand what a “Benoni” is, he starts be quoting from the Gemara (Niddah, end of ch. 3) which tells us that before the soul comes into the body, “An oath is administered to him:” Be righteous and be not wicked; and even if the whole world tells you that you are righteous, regard yourself as wicked.’”
(I recommend to anyone who wants to understand this matter seriously to take the time and study this chapter but for now this is the passage in question)
For in the [case of the] Jew, this soul of kelipah is derived from the kelipah called “nogah”, which also contains good;
This kelipah] is from the esoteric “Tree of Knowledge” [which is comprised] of good and evil.
The souls of the nations of the world, however, emanate from the other, unclean kelipot which contain no good whatever,
as is written in Etz Chayim, Portal 49, ch. 3, that all the good that the nations do, is done out of selfish motives.
So the Gemara comments on the verse, “The kindness of the nations is sin” — that all the charity and kindness done by the nations of the world is only for their self-glorification…
Let’s try this one more time:
1. Non-Jews do not have a Divine soul, only Jews do.
2. Non-Jews souls are evil.
3. Non-Jews are selfish, the only “good” they do for Jews is really to benefit the non-Jew himself.
4. Branching out to other sources within hasidic thought, Adam had a Divine soul, Seth had a Divine soul, etc., but only one of Noah children did. Shem did. Canan and Yafet did not.
The decendants of Shem also were divided, some having a Divine soul, some not, until you get to Abraham who had a Divine soul. So did Yitzhak. So did Yakov. So did each of Yakov’s children, ie., the Jews.
So, back to the Tanya again, the Jews have Divine souls, the non-Jews do not.
Then you can look at halakha. Do you save a non-Jew who is dying on Shabbat? No. However, later halakha makes an exception to this for “darkei shalom.” As poskim write, “if we don’t save them, they won’t save us or, worse yet, they will kill us.”
How could it be that halakha would mandate that you stand by and not help as a non-Jew drowns or burns to death in a fire on Shabbat?
Because a non-Jew does not have a Divine soul, and therefore is treated by halakha just like halakha treats an animal.
It is not true that no Rebbe has ever written that righteous gentiles are capable of doing unconditional acts of kindness and righteous.
See Igros Kodesh vol 9 p 53 where the Lubavitcher Rebbe says it plainly that righteous gentiles are from klipas nogah, and he references a Zohar, and vol 15 p 182 where he again says it explicitly and also references R’ Hillel Paritcher and notes that what he writes is “based” on the Alter Rebbe’s Siddur, like R’ Hillel himself references the siddur.
There is also a reference to the maamorim of the Mitteler Rebbe Dvorim v 4 p 1027, where he refers to “the good in the klipa of nogah” in reference to righteous gentiles.
The Alter Rebbe wrote a lot of nice things about righteous gentiles in his commentary on the siddur and this was in the 1700’s before their was a B’nei Noach movement…and yet he wrote that there are righteous gentiles. And we know that this path is open to any gentile. And in my opinion, back then in the 1700’s, the Alter Rebbe considered people righteous gentiles even if they weren’t learning Torah with an orthodox rabbi. How many non-Jews in Russia were learning Torah with orthodox rabbis – non-Jews who didn’t want to become Jews but only righteous gentiles? My hunch is there were none.
Again, this is revisionist crap.
“Righteous gentiles,” as defined in hasidiut, are very few in number. We’re talking about 1 for every 100,000,000 or more non-Jews.
So, are there a FEW non-Jews whose souls are not 100% evil according to Chabad hasidit? Yes there are.
But are the vast MAJORITY of non-Jews’ souls wholly and completely EVIL according to Chabad hasidut? Yes.
Chabad is extremely bigoted.
If you read these letters, the siddur, R’ Hillel’s words, the Mitteler Rebbe’s words…what did they revise?
Also, read this on Pirkei Avot: http://www.sichosinenglish.org/books/sichos-in-english/26/11.htm
He says that all human beings – Jews and non-Jews – are beloved and precious and he also quotes the Tosfot Yom Tov who was not Chassidic.
As Chassidus explains, the reason for the term used in the Talmud, “Ger” — a convert — who converts, (not a “gentile” who converts) is because the righteous proselyte had a spark of the G-dly soul even before conversion, it just had to be brought out through halachic conversion.
That is taken from the souce you quote. In other words, non-Jews who do not convert do not have Godly souls – the source of their souls, as it says in Tanya, is evil and all their “good” is altogether “selfish” and “evil.”
As for the Divine image, only those non-Jews who observe the 7 mitzvot as Chabad understands that are created in the Divine image – the 99.999 % of non-Jews who do not accept the 7 mitzvot are not created in the Divine image.
Any gentile can convert…the way I understand this teaching about the “ger” who converts is two ways:
1. The non-Jew always had a Jewish soul.
2. The non-Jew did not always have a Jewish soul, but even before he/she went to the mikvah, Hashem placed the pintele Yid in them.
Also, I don’t think either you or I have it clear what makes a non-Jew a righteous gentile. There may be many many many more then you think. Here are two example:
1. The Alter Rebbe said there were righteous gentiles in his time…it is obvious, that they did not learn the laws of the Rambam on this.
2. The Rebbe referred in 5751 during the Gulf War to the Patriot missiles manned by Americans as “one non-Jew aimed a missile at a concentration of Jewish people and another non-Jew, a righteous gentile, dispatched another missile which intercepted it.” (sichos in english translation). How did the Lubavitcher Rebbe know this non-Jewish soldier learned the Rambam’s criteria for what makes one a righteous gentile and actually fulfilled them?
The word God is in the term “Tzelem Elokim”, which refers to all human beings as the Lubavitcher Rebbe teaches in that link I brought before. For starters that’s a pretty big praise. So all human beings are CREATED in the image of God. It’s possible for that image to get dirty, to be covered over with shells, but it’s always there – at least under the surface – waiting to be revealed. Even according to the Chabad Rebbeim, all human beings have a spark of holiness (a nitzutz kedusha – there are several letters where the Rebbe writes this, and quotes this from previous rebbeim, so there is holiness in there) even if it’s temporarily trapped in what sefer Etz Chaim (Arizal) calls the three impure shells – which means that the person’s worldview is “I” – centered (Jews can be this way too); he is still capable of DOING good things – but it’s because he has been taught to do so, not because he has a natural instinct to do so, because his life is about himself, and not about others which can only come from belief in One God, instead of in other deities which cause the world to be fragmented and separated. But a non-Jew who is a righteous gentile has the natural instinct to do good even without thinking about it or being taught. A Jew can also become disconnected from the rest of the world, and fall into the three shells. But he can come out of it, just like a non-Jew can.
Your ignorance of halakha does not make your “good thought” true.
Do you what it means to call someone a tzaddik? Does it mean tzaddik like the Tanya defines it? Or like the gemara? Or like halakha? Or as it is used in normal colloquial speech?
You obviously do not.
You write:
And what do you think righteous gentiles “studied” BEFORE the Rambam wrote the Yad?
Were there no righteous gentiles then? Please.
The rest of what you write is crap, modern spin on ancient hatred.
There are few non-Jews who are, according to HALAKHA, righteous gentiles. Chabad does NOT teach that Christians are righteous gentiles (ie., Chabad does NOT follow the Meiri).
Go back to you indoctrination center and ask your ‘teacher’ if Chabad holds like the Meiri on this. And ask him for specific source citations.
Ok. Look, I am struggling with this stuff…Everything I wrote I either got from other people or it’s my own chiddushim. I believe in the concept of a teacher-nation, who will help make the whole world a Godly place…I am a BT who never fully found his place in any orthodox or non-orthodox group…..don’t print this please.
I wish you simcha and brachot.
Eglon the King of Moav (Judges, Ch. 3), did a very praiseworthy thing:
Verse 20: And Ehud came unto him[Eglon]; and he was sitting by himself alone in his cool upper chamber. And Ehud said: ‘I have a message from God unto thee.’ And he arose out of his seat.
Rashi brings on this verse, and the Yalkut Shimoni brings it in 3 places; the first being perek gimel, siman mem-beis, that in reward for Eglon’s standing up for the sake of God’s name, Ruth came out of him; she was one of his descendents. And Ruth is the ancestress of Moshiach. So it turns out that one of Moshiach’s forefathers was Eglon, King of Moav. Not too shabby for a heathen king, and no less a member of the nation of Moav, no?
Rav Kook brings in a letter (forget which one) that the Sages teach that the descendents of Haman learned Torah in Eretz Yisrael and the descendents of Sancherev taught Torah in Bnei Brak…This shows a lack of ancient hatred on the part of the Sages.
I’ve done a lot of thinking and reading in the past week or so, and to be totally honest with myself, I have to say that I believe that Shmarya is correct in this discussion. I didn’t want to believe him, I did all the research I could to disprove him, because I wanted to believe we were just not understanding the Tanya correctly…but now I have to admit to myself that he is correct. And now I must oppose the Chabad generalizations of B’nei Noach. In that letter from Igros Kodesh that Shmarya has quoted a couples of times above, it clearly states that even the Chassidei Umos Haolom who have a chelek la’oloam habah, stem from gimmel klippos temeios and we know what it means to come from gimmel klippos temeios from this letter itself (and it is a very very very geferlach sounding GENERALIZATION). Even though he writes in two later letters that the chassidei umos haolam stem from klipas nogah, why did he change his belief from what he wrote in the earlier letter that they do not? I read the Siddur Im Dach and it never says the words that the chassidei umos haolom come from klipas nogah. It definitely says some nice things about them, but not this. Even though the idea appears in Rabbi Hillel’s work and supposedly in the Mittler Rebbe’s maamar Devarim vol 4 pg. 1207 (which I hope to eventually see), nevertheless, read what it says in every other commentary on the Tanya and especially in that particular letter in Igros Kodesh.
I don’t yet know how to understand the aggadata in Baba Basra 10b, but my feeling is that it is not as explained in the Tanya. I am now in a state of mourning over my disillusionment and I must now emphatically reject this generalization that is written in the Tanya and state that I believe it should have no place in Judaism. Even though there is plenty of good in Chabad, I need to state that this particular belief should have no place in Judaism.